Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[Quinton595]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to find a solid-state DAC and Amp stack for around $900 USD, with plans to add a power amp in the future (so the headphone amp needs to double as a preamp with a switch for the preamp outputs).

I've identified a few good companies: Schiit, RME, Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc.

I am very interested in buying an E70 / L70 stack from Topping, but their build quality and reliability seem to be the worst of all brands, and I've heard similar complaints from all of the chinese-production brands. There are MANY threads on MANY different forums and websites talking about chinese-brand audio equipment being DOA, or dying within only a few months or a year.

Now, I want to state that I am not one of those racist guys who just assumes that everything from China is garbage "Because China". I know Chinese manufacturing well, from other aspects of my life, and I know they can absolutely put out some of the best-made stuff in the world, when their factories are contracted to do so.

What I don't know is where domestic brands like Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc. fall on this spectrum of quality. Are they TRYING to put out reliable products, with 15+ year lifespans, or are they only trying to put out HIGH PERFORMANCE products?

I am fully expecting to get at least 10, 15+ years out of my stack, because frankly, anything less is absolutely unacceptable, and I would ideally like to get 20+ years, or until the capacitors reach their chemical end.

Do you all think it's reasonable to expect this kind of lifespan from Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc? If you had to recommend a few $900 DAC/Amp stacks prioritizing reliability, which brands would you recommend? Do you think Schiit is more reliable than these chinese brands?

Thank you!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ask me in 15 years. For what you are wanting, buy an RME ADI-2 FS DAC and be done with it. Has everything you want in one box. Excellent quality, RME supports its gear far longer than most companies. It is over your $900 budget, though not incredibly so. You'll be very happy with it and if spread out over 15 years, the extra $400 isn't that much. Plus if you wish to change later, the RME will have substantial value 2nd hand that I doubt the current Chinese models will have.

I do have a Topping D10 Balanced which has never had any issue. Then I also have a BabyFace Pro FS.

 

[dfuller]

I agree, buy RME and be done with it. Either that or Lynx, both of whom have a stellar rep for maintaining their products.

 

[Quinton595]

I had a feeling before I posted that everyone would say "Buy the RME Adi-2 DAC/Amp"

I know it's a great product. It's probably the best product for me. I just hate how ugly it is to me, and that stupid screen. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's not the end of the world.

 

[TonyJZX]

you're ask a lot when a some japanese and trad western brands cant reliably do this

i always say... you want a guaratee? buy something from amazon? loyalty? get a dog

also look at your time scale... what was china doing 15 yrs ago?

I also think if youre buying something like RME you're getting stuff the Chinese have not been able to replicate, which is obvious.

Get the RME is what they're delivering to you is unique.

ALSO ask yourself what kind of service you are expecting after a decade etc. - like realistically can you expect SINGSTER to still be around???? come on now

 

[Quinton595]

you're ask a lot when a some japanese and trad western brands cant reliably do this

i always say... you want a guaratee? buy something from amazon? loyalty? get a dog

also look at your time scale... what was china doing 15 yrs ago?

I also think if youre buying something like RME you're getting stuff the Chinese have not been able to replicate, which is obvious.

Get the RME is what they're delivering to you is unique.

ALSO ask yourself what kind of service you are expecting after a decade etc. - like realistically can you expect SINGSTER to still be around???? come on now

I ALWAYS expect a company to close down and go bankrupt the day after I buy from them, so I always assume no support at all. That's part of why I want well-made stuff.

My dad's audio electronics from Yamaha are 40+ years old and still work just fine with no maintenance. I know that over the last 40 years, technology has focused more on miniturization and computational power than it has on reliability and redundancy, but I still feel that a 10, 15+ year lifespan is perfectly reasonable, and should be the minimum acceptable life for a product. I could go on a diatribe about how we've all just been conditioned to think of 2 years as a long time for an electronic because of the fast fashion industry of phones and laptops, but that's a conversation for another day...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I had a feeling before I posted that everyone would say "Buy the RME Adi-2 DAC/Amp"

I know it's a great product. It's probably the best product for me. I just hate how ugly it is to me, and that stupid screen. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's not the end of the world.

JDS labs Headphone amp/pre and separate JDS DAC?

 

[Blumlein 88]

SMSL 500 mk II. Half your budget. If it lasts 7.5 years, shouldn't that be good enough? One box to do it all again. More attractive plus XLR out as an option.

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[Blumlein 88]

Motu Ultralite Mk 5. Not pretty in my opinion, but a good performer. Does what you need and more including an ADC. Headphone out is weak, but good with easy to play phones. Leaves enough money in your budget to combine it with an excellent dedicated headphone amp.

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[TonyJZX]

i think most of us have been around long enough and spent enough to see thru a lot of this

eg. i bought a top of the line marantz made in japan amp that was amazingly well built

like copper sheet chassis, copper screws, they pulled out all the stops

thing broke down twice, local guys couldnt work on it so i had to get the stereotypical elderly asian e.eng who didnt speak much english to fix it... twice

but i'm broken enough in the head to still love marantz

i've also bought chinese class a/b gear that has been faultess... going onto year 5 now... in fact its older than my last kid

but i still wouldnt buy topping

i feel that some of the more not well known chinese companies do A/B quite well but some companies are still screwing up digital amps and dacs which kind of blows my mind

trad class a/b with EL or toroidals used the be the big relibailtiy worries but doesnt seem to be with these new companies screwing up digital stuff

 

[CedarX]

Conspiracy theory #3278: in 13 years, Schiit buys Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc.
Conspiracy theory #5723: in 14 years, China invades and annexes “the West”.

So, the answer to your question is an absolute ‘yes’…???

Reliability/durability is mostly defined as a function of usage (hours), number of cycles, and things like power spikes, ambient temperature—none of these you define—not ‘years’. What if you leave it in its box unused for 14 years?

I apologize if it sounds aggressive but, are you really expecting an objective answer here?

 

[OldHvyMec]

51 years with Mcintosh now. I did manage to blow up an MC275 with a direct cable drop onto an NC500oem MB by Nord. The Nord was fine the Mac blew
a KT88 GL, and a transformer. I have well over 50 pieces of Mac Gear and owned over 125 through the years. I play with other brands but Krell and Mac in
my home have 30+ year old DACs. Actually one of my favorite preamps is an old HT51 Krell. The remote was CnCed from a solid aluminum billet that still
works perfect. It's hands down the best remote I've EVER used. It makes all thing Mac/remote seem cheep.

The issue I have was somewhat mitigated by the "SUB" on the remote it had a volume control in 2 channel LS mode. No tone controls BUT a wonderfully
transparent product considering. How old is that Krell DAC? Mac is the same as far as being transparent, just leave the tone controls alone. The newer Mac
doesn't have the old Mac house flavor like say a C3X. From a C2200-2700 transparent as can be. All the SS from C45 up are the same until you hit the
50 series and of course they are transparent.

C100-1100. MX120-170 VERY transparent. Their DACs are as good as any out there, you will never be able to tell the difference in a AB or ABX, BUT 50 years
from now there is a good chance they will be working. I might have a doubt or two on the MX series (AVP) complex piles for sure.

The question is 15 years good enough and who gets your stuff when you kick the bucket? Do you want to leave something you have to throw away
or sell for a nice chunk of change to someone if they don't like your gear?

I KNOW the reputation and the track record of Mcintosh valve and SS personally. Cary valve gear isn't any slouch either. I wouldn't trade my SLP-05/V12Rs
for anything. They been boiling along for 15+ years.

Oh, I'm listening to an MX110z and a MC225 right now. The MC225 lost ONE 12AX7 Tellie 8 -10 years ago. Neither have ever been touched except with
wax and oil. Pins and pockets are serviced every 5 years or so. 60 years old! Toot Toot! I know I can, I know I can.. lol

Happy hunting

Regards

 

[Joe Smith]

See how it goes...for most of us, these kind of items are not a fortune. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

If it worries you...spend more and buy items you can send into a designated service center for repairs.

I'm now at the point where a lot of my equipment will outlast me, so my worries of this nature have, uh, diminished...

 

[MaxwellsEq]

that stupid screen.

Interesting point of view. I own an ADI 2 Pro FS R Be which obviously also has an ADC. The screen is very informative (and essential for digitising analogue signals). Most photos on the net only show it with frequency response bar graphs, but it has hundreds of other screens to view the (slightly overwhelming) configuration options and information about the signals passing through it. You can even turn it off.

The one thing it is not is "stupid".

 

[solderdude]

Do you think Schiit is more reliable than these chinese brands?

When the price and performance is similar then they, very likely, are about equally reliable.
PCB quality and parts will be similar in quality.
China can produce cheaper but import/shipping adds to the price.

Every manufacturer can buy a batch of poor quality parts (most of them are Eastern produced anyway) which may pass inspection when just a few samples are used.
It happened to me (company I work for) a few times. Even with parts from reputable manufacturers.

So it is partly a lottery, partly usage, partly local circumstances, even atmospheric (near the coast the air is saltier).
In most cases its switches, volume controls, relays and power components getting some abuse or static discharges that determine the life span.

Also consider that much more cheap products are sold so even when relatively less devices go bad there will be relatively more people complaining about failures.

 

[Mnyb]

Yes everything is in some way made in china anyway .
Even if it says made in us or germany on the tin . Boards may be done in Chinese factories or if not that components may very well be.

So a good brand has built up a service organisation and local reps you can contact when it breaks ( not if ) some of the new Chinese brands has not reached that stage in maturity yet , so your asked to ship it back to china…

If in Europe you can buy from a local reseller like audiophonics so that they can be the middleman if warranty problems arise ?

 

[Sokel]

The way I see it it's not where it's made but under what standards.
I have seen VERY high quality PCBs from eastern countries but there was something like 5 times the price of normal ones.
It's what each company asks for really.

Western certifications is a nice hint though,specially when it comes to safety.

 

[ZolaIII]

Well Steinberg (Yamaha) still makes audio interfaces if that makes you happy. Uper tire is good and they are sticking with AKM DAC's and ADC's but it's out of your budget. The older R.M.E. ADI DAC FS (first generation with AKM and separate good deticated IEM amplifier stage) is safe bet and very good rounded offering (including equal loudness) but it's still out of your budget so if you can find it on a discount. I am not into aesthetics especially for professional gear.

 

[Mnyb]

yes don't buy anything without proper safety certifications .

 

[Astoneroad]

I think that the presumed lifespan of the owner has to enter this equation. It seems presumptuous to think that one will be alive in 20 years. As objectivists, a check of the actuarial tables of how long we statistically have left, against the price difference between the pieces of gear being considered, seems prudent. We can do the math and come up with a few enlightening cost vs benefit data points. Otherwise... who cares if we've saved $500 if we're dead and our gear lives on?