Proposal: Right to Fair Review (RFR) Association

[Linards]

I definitely support initiative to have an ease-of-mind and safety when doing things that we love.

I don't have a certain gut feeling about association and format, but some immediate, easily implemented steps can be taken ASAP, such as useful / legally correct disclaimer (mentioned before) even if building association would take some more time and effort. Also access to related information, education and guidelines for reviewers and manufacturers are very important. I guess this would be something entire community would benefit from.

The thing that bothers me about the whole situation is lack of constructive dialogue and working through the disagreement without mentioning lawyers and court. Naturally, it would have triggered very defensive response from anybody, if threatened with such things...

Also I find that the main issue here are existence of measurements (that ASR is all about).
I mean, imagine that someone would say: "I listened to the speaker and my experience wasn't pleasant." or "Based on my experience, I would not recommend it." Is it case for court? Seriously, can someone be sued for that? If not, (and I hope not) than expressing personal opinion based on personal experience is (and should be) OK thing to do.

On the other hand, when we have measurement data - we can dispute about all the little things and it is somewhat open for interpretation (what is "good" what is "bad"). Thus, it seems to me that "objective" or perhaps better - "measurement data based" reviews are much more endangered.

Even we agree on interpretation, there is also validity of measurement data. As far as I understood, the claim was - measurement setup was not valid (and thus rendered data is not representative, cannot be used for interpretation). However, it seems, that validity of measurement data was not in question. Then from point of view reviewer everything is OK, as long as it is well documented, how measurements were made and are they repeatable by any 3rd party.

Perhaps guidelines could quickly help to identify exact point of disagreement, e.g. "Disagreement on measurement setup" and could help navigate both parties through the disagreement process (think some sort of flow chart). Also, if shown to lawyers, perhaps each of disagreement point could have some comments about how to resolve situation without court and what (general) laws are in place to protect both parties... just thinking out loud.

It is sad it escalated so quickly... I hope all of this is only for good.
Cheers!

 

[ripmixburn]

Not a lawyer but I have heard that homeowners or renters insurance can often have a very affordable add-on for defamation and SLAPP lawsuits. Worth checking your policies as it may already be included.

 

[Timcognito]

One big issue is how to vet who is in the fund and who is arbitrator of those who would be covered. So if PS Audio wants in, do you let them come in? Seems like for every Amir or Erin there are ten that would be liabilities. The actuary mathematics is out of wack in the audio reviewing community for something like this. Write some kind of Code of Ethics, Procedures, and Remedies and those who want to commit to it and advertise that they do, pay a fee used in a fund to invoke legal action (mostly counter threats against frivolous attacks). Consumer Reports is probably big enough to take this on, not unpaid Amir with donations from us. IMO
(Moved here from the Tekton/Erin post)

 

[Billy Budapest]

Many lawsuits on Red Light Cameras which resulted in the cameras being taken down because of even the slightest percent not working correctly.

That’s actually not the reason why red light camera lawsuits have been successful. Most of the courts’ decisions have resolved disputes rooted in constitutional rights. See here for examples in Missouri:

Missouri Supreme Court strikes down red-light cameras in St. Louis

Updated with comments from attorneys, and the cities of St. Louis and St. Peters.Getting caught on camera running a red light in St. Louis will no longer…

www.stlpr.org

 

[Crosstalk]

Will the companies hunt the ASR users now to have legal actions among them? In such an event will Amir be forced to provide someone the IP addresses of people who are logging in here?

 

[TLEDDY]

That is precisely my experience with my attorneys. Anytime I have to consult with them on a matter, it easily costs a few thousand dollars.

Been there, done that- have the T-shirt!

litigation at ANY LEVEL is hugely expensive, Annoying and unfair as it may seem, it may make good business sense to settle “nuisance “ claims rather than litigate. My personal floor for bringing suit against another party for damages, even if I have a solid case in both fact and law, is $200,000 - otherwise, not worth it.

in the very few times I have been sued, I made a business decision based on cost of legal defense versus settlement. I defended a discrimination claim through trial and won easily; a Pyrrhic Victory because legal expenses in todays dollars was $70,000 and I could have settled for $3,000. On the other hand, it was then known that I could not be blackmailed and no other claims of discrimination against me have been brought since the 1970’s.

I emphasize I am not a lawyer, that said, as already mentioned in the Bose case, there needs to be evidence of malice before speech (writings) of opinion are actionable for award. I point out emphatically: Anyone can sue anyone else for anything…period!! Huge pain in the ass! The current discussion is a perfect example of legal bullying, just as the Blue Jeans story mentioned herein.

Now, I promise to support the ASR cause! please advise as to where I should send my own small cash donation.

Tillman

 

[Dave-Oh]

Hi Amir,

I am a Patent Attorney. I would like to help. It probably also would be good to get an Attorney involved that has experience with defamation issues/litigation, if there is one in this forum.

I do civil litigation in Virginia & have a fair amount of experience with defamation cases in state and federal courts here. I'll get in touch with Amir

 

[III-V]

Before establishing any sort of organization, I would first strive to understand how providing test and measurement results (and opinion) of certain commercially available products could be considered something that you could feasibly get sued for. I am not an expert in law in any way but it sounds as if they are just trying to bully you into not reviewing their product with the threat of a legal repercussion, even if that repercussion is nonexistent. Of course, at this point you will need legal council but perhaps in the future you would not as you would already understand the legal boundaries under which you can operate.

I am not in audio but I work in test and measurement of electronic devices and having devices not match manufactures spec is not terribly unusual, and we have never been met with legal threats, although we have had our share of uncomfortable discussions. We do not work as product reviewers however, so our funding model is different and often comes from the end user of the product, although sometimes it does come from the manufacturer, and when major discrepancies arise, we will reach out to the clients before going live with results. Often we can track down the differences and come to an agreeable resolution that does not compromise the integrity of the data for the end user.

 

[Drengur]

I would be willing to help in some way if at all helpful. Unfortunately my legal education will not be very helpful in the US, but I will be following this and offering some kind of assistance if applicable. I think this is quite important in the broad context of fair reviews. Strong-arming is unfortunately a useful tool for corporations and people well-off, even in jurisdictions were litigation is not as expensive as in north-America and the UK.

 

[gpauk]

How about publishing from a non US jurisdiction?

 

[Billy Budapest]

Will the companies hunt the ASR users now to have legal actions among them? In such an event will Amir be forced to provide someone the IP addresses of people who are logging in here?

I seriously doubt that.

 

[amirm]

How about publishing from a non US jurisdiction?

I am not educated on the risks there. I have just heard that such legal threats is much more rare outside of US.

 

[amirm]

litigation at ANY LEVEL is hugely expensive, Annoying and unfair as it may seem, it may make good business sense to settle “nuisance “ claims rather than litigate.

Reminds of me another situation. I hardly ever go into Seattle so not familiar with all they rules and procedures for parking in the city. Went to visit a client and parked across the street from them. I go to the meter, pay for parking and get the usual piece of paper. I put that on the dashboard and go have the meeting. I come out and there is a ticket on my window for not putting the sticker on the side window, not under front windshield! I am infuriated as I have paid for parking and they want me to pay again for something obscure like this which I had not seen. So I dispute the ticket which i think was $25 or something like that.

I get a date to go and see a magistrate judge. I arrive at the building and see that it costs something like $35 to park there! So now I am out more than the parking amount but I do it and go inside. After wasting an hour or more to see the judge, he starts by reading me the riot act that I was supposed to know the rules. I repeatedly explained to him that i did not know and that laws need to be fair. Seeing how I had paid for the ticket, they could have given me a warning instead of treating me the same as someone who had not paid for the parking at all. This went on for 10 minutes with the judge constantly trying to get me to confess that I had broken the law. Then all of a sudden, he changed his mood and said, "I see that you have no tickets on your record so I am going to dismiss this." And that was that.

So now I had driven a ton of miles to go there, paid tolls and the parking costs. Felt half-way like a fool for doing it.

 

[Cbdb2]

My first thought: you'd need a LOT of lawyers because...

... you live in the most litigious country in the world. How else do you keep 30% of the planets lawyers busy?

 

[Tipickleman]

As many of you I am sure have followed, both Erin and I were hit with legal threats from a company post our reviews. Given the unfairness of the situation, many of you came to our defenses and provided incredible level of support both financially and in many other ways such as legal and business advice. While I have always had this risk in mind and had prepared for it in some ways, it was still major source of pain for me and especially for Erin. While this crisis is not fully over, I think we need to look to the future to see how we could be better prepared for it.

I propose that a new lightweight organization be created that I call Right to Fair Review (RFA) Association (RFAA). The things we need to cover in there are:

1. Education. What are the legal issues involved in writing independent reviews of products? What is the law exactly? What are the best practices for writing/creating video reviews as to lower chances of litigation? What to do when threat of litigation or actual litigation is occurring? Advice regarding incorporation, LLC, etc. You get the idea.

2. Access to a lawyer for initial consultation. I am thinking half hour talking to an attorney with knowledge of the field (audio in our case) would do a world of good. While I have great attorneys, they don't know audio so it would take me a lot to explain things to them while paying $500/hour. And even then, they may not fully understand the situation. We have member attorneys here that could do a far more efficient job in a 30 minute conversation than many hours with a general attorney.

To keep such expenses low, such consultation could be limited to say, 1 per year for ordinary members, with option to go higher levels and get more of this.

3. Insurance. The insurance market has hardly any products to offer for this type of defamation claim. They have policies to insure large newspapers and such but not necessarily for small independent reviewers. I know, I had my broker look for months for such a policy until they found one a few years ago. I paid them nearly $5000/year for the policy, just to have them write me a cold letter a couple of months ago saying they no longer wanted to offer such a product. The search continued and again took a couple of months for my broker to find another policy with similar cost.

The organization could do such a search and create a proper market for such a policy. Even the policy I found needs better customization as their application form had tons and tons of irrelevant questions that I had to fill out in order to be qualified.

4. Referral to legal firms situated to handle the proper defense should the case go to trial, etc.

5. I am thinking reviewers could sign up by paying reasonable yearly fees. I am thinking $100 to $300 per year. Organization would then rely on donations for rest of its operational budget.

6. Staff attorneys could have day jobs and take these calls after hours. They could be compensated per hour or through advertising for their firm.

7. Guidelines for company conduct could be created as far as how they approach reviewers with objections, issues. Then, they could be allowed to become members and have a seal of "fair review supporters" which they could display as being good citizens. So while the number of reviewers is small, this class could be quite large. We have already seen a number of companies speaking out in support of value of fair reviews of audio products.

8. This is a much larger goal but campaigning politically for specific laws to protect fair reviews as opposed to having old laws regarding defamation, etc. be repurposed to go after reviews.

9. Guidelines for reviews. Just as there will be some for manufacturers, there needs to be things that reviewers do to be in good standing with the organization. For example, posting manufacturer responses in reviews. Available contact information.

10. Ability to create arbitration to settle issues early and without much expense.

All of this said, there are down sides to such things as some orgs get the life of their own and wind up servicing themselves than their members, etc.

11. A private forum where like minded reviewers and members can exchange experiences and knowledge about this topic.

But here are my thoughts. What say you?

Hi! This is my first post, you may want to share your story and concern with Louis Rossemann, he's a big youtuber advocating for consumers right, and he has testified many times for consumers rights awarness.... he runs a non profit organization that fight all kind of abuse from corporations and companies.
Please bear in mind that French ( Canada) is my main language so please forgive me.
Please check him out on YouTube and maybe someone could get in touch with him and share the story... I am sure he will gladly talk about it on his channel ...
Regard

Guy

Link : https://youtube.com/@rossmanngroup?si=AFnHdFrlfNC_sEa0

 

[Tipickleman]

Hi! This is my first post, you may want to share your story and concern with Louis Rossemann, he's a big youtuber advocating for consumers right, and he has testified many times for consumers rights awarness.... he runs a non profit organization that fight all kind of abuse from corporations and companies.
Please bear in mind that French ( Canada) is my main language so please forgive me.
Please check him out on YouTube and maybe someone could get in touch with him and share the story... I am sure he will gladly talk about it on his channel ...
Regard

Guy

Link : https://youtube.com/@rossmanngroup?si=AFnHdFrlfNC_sEa0

I was a member of this forum but lost my username so I had to create a new account... I go by the name of Dihydrotestosterone on YouTube and have commented a few times on Amir's reviews in a positive way

 

[amirm]

Hi! This is my first post, you may want to share your story and concern with Louis Rossemann, he's a big youtuber advocating for consumers right, and he has testified many times for consumers rights awarness....

I was working in the garden today and thought of contacting Louis to get his support on this program. After all, I named this proposed organization after his "right to repair" advocacy! Does anyone know how to get a hold of him?

 

[Tipickleman]

I think he can be contacted directly at his business...
https://rossmanngroup.com/
From watching his videos he seems like a good person who can't stand bullying and corporate abuse. You'll save time by asking Louis what to do... don't forget he has 2 million subscribers on YouTube...

 

[Vicfontaine]

My first thought: you'd need a LOT of lawyers because there's not telling what state a hypothetical action could be filed. And laws are different state to state.

I'm still thoroughly convinced that this is something blown way out of proportion. Some idiot rants about suing. OK, go ahead, buddy. You'll do that right after your ABX test showing you can hear the difference between silver and copper?

It's a solution to a non-problem, IMO.

I agree with this being blown out of proportion.
It reminds me of when I was a reporter and someone involved in some story I was covering claimed they were going to sue somebody. My editor told me we don't cover threats of litigation. There isn't a lawsuit until there's a lawsuit.

And I'm not offering legal advice, but I'd say the minute someone starts threatening litigation you should just cut off communication and tell them to have their lawyer call yours. Most times they won't. In Erin's case, the only reason to sue him would be to make an example of him for other reviewers. There's no financial benefit. There's no big payday from winning the lawsuit. Just legal bills.

Perhaps an organization like this would make it easier to call a manufacturer's bluff, though.

 

[kemmler3D]

seems like for every Amir or Erin there are ten that would be liabilities.

I think there would have to be a case-by-case evaluation. If someone in the organization gets sued for legitimate, actual libel or defamation, i.e. the org. decides they're probably actually "guilty", that shouldn't be covered. So I agree there should be standards of conduct for members as well as a standard of evaluation for cases that members want help with.