Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

[JohnYang1997]

Can you point one out?

Maybe on the Singxer SA-1 thread. No where else that I've seen so far. If they like what they hear, great. I really don't want to confront them just because they said it sounds better.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Sure, i went to the two reviews of the most popular DACs on this forum and got some replies for you.

"So, I am a lurker but just joined to pop into this discussion. Just received my X26 Pro today, which I upgraded from the X16 I received less than a month prior... I may be foolish and irresponsible with my money, but I'll be damned if I can't hear a huge differece already in the first few tracks I'm listening to that I know well. There is simply more detail. But I also notice that it is slightly softer, almost warmer or more musical (**I'm sorry, I am new and don't know better adjectives at this point) than the X16. It almost sounds flatter. It is brand new and still cool to the touch, although she is heating up quick I will report back after further burn in."

He also continues to say in a following comment

"I really should have added that the bass slam is SO much more.. this thing hits."

Both DACs are absolutely transparent.

Another comment by another user:

"I would like to share my thoughts for the Gustard X16 in combination with Bluesound node 2i , I purchase it through audiophonics , I had already changed the power supply with a linear supply from PD creative (Poland] , all these components together create a “package” that has exceptional value for money audio quality, clarity , soundstage everything is clearly enhanced , if the brand name of this dac was some well known European brand easliy the asking price could be well over 1.000 € , bravo Gustard , bravo audiosciencereview for making these products well known to the public , otherwise I wouldn’t have bought this product from a company I never heard before !"

Nah, you can't fault them. They will learn eventually.

 

[abdo123]

Maybe on the Singxer SA-1 thread. No where else that I've seen so far. If they like what they hear, great. I really don't want to confront them just because they said it sounds better.

exactly, no big deal.

but when we pretend these don't happen and call out people who call that out we're essentially becoming a cult.

 

[BluesDaddy]

exactly, no big deal.

but when we pretend these don't happen and call out people who call that out we're essentially becoming a cult.

Because it's the rarity, they seem to be relatively new, and they don't go on and on promulgating BS based on their "hearing" something "better" based solely on SINAD (unless their previous DAC was absolute trash). I fact, neither of the quotes you provided even include "SINAD" in them.

 

[RayDunzl]

Sure, i went to the two reviews of the most popular DACs on this forum and got some replies for you.

"So, I am a lurker but just joined to pop into this discussion. Just received my X26 Pro today, which I upgraded from the X16 I received less than a month prior... I may be foolish and irresponsible with my money, but I'll be damned if I can't hear a huge differece already in the first few tracks I'm listening to that I know well. There is simply more detail. But I also notice that it is slightly softer, almost warmer or more musical (**I'm sorry, I am new and don't know better adjectives at this point) than the X16. It almost sounds flatter. It is brand new and still cool to the touch, although she is heating up quick I will report back after further burn in."

He also continues to say in a following comment

"I really should have added that the bass slam is SO much more.. this thing hits."

Both DACs are absolutely transparent.

Another comment by another user:

"I would like to share my thoughts for the Gustard X16 in combination with Bluesound node 2i , I purchase it through audiophonics , I had already changed the power supply with a linear supply from PD creative (Poland] , all these components together create a “package” that has exceptional value for money audio quality, clarity , soundstage everything is clearly enhanced , if the brand name of this dac was some well known European brand easliy the asking price could be well over 1.000 € , bravo Gustard , bravo audiosciencereview for making these products well known to the public , otherwise I wouldn’t have bought this product from a company I never heard before !"

Thank you.

New members. Might say anything. They often don't penetrate my consciousness (as well as there being far too many posts to keep up with anymore), so I apologize for doubting your observation.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

It is certainly easier to just believe unsupported claims. Nothing really needed other than...belief in their ears?
Why believe anyone else's individual listening experience report, when we all seem to agree on how personal hearing/listening is?

You don't need to be a scientist or engineer to understand this stuff, you just have to actually want to, then put in the time to do it. It isn't hidden behind quantum magic or golden ears, it is accessible to everyone who cares enough to bother.

How is it easier to believe something unsupported by measurements and science compared to something that is supported by it when you can't understand or verify the results in practical terms on your own? You are still believing one thing or the other.

I've tried to base my purchases on the impressions of those who own a similar level of gear to me. I don't read audiophile reviews or marketing brochures to inform my opinion or purchase decisions -- I may read them for fun or to add some context to something that I have already purchased or interested in purchasing, but it doesn't factor into whether I am going to buy something or not.

 

[RayDunzl]

far too many posts to keep up with anymore

I can't even remember more than a few of my own posts now that I'm eligible for full retirement benefits...

Somebody will post a belated "like", I'll go back and look, and often be completely surprised at whatever it was I said, having no conscious memory of the event.

At least I find I was reasonably consistent, though, which is nice, so I've got that going for me.

 

[RayDunzl]

The way some of you describe the transformation of new users into experienced users sounds a lot like indoctrination to me.

A nice word for it could be "Education", though, in These Days of Modern Times, can be skewed to whatever hidden meaning there is to be unearthed.

 

[BluesDaddy]

We're getting into Head-fi level bullshit now...

 

[Deleted member 31910]

A nice word for it could be "Education", though, in These Days of Modern Times, can be skewed to whatever hidden meaning there is to be unearthed.

Education or indoctrination, a matter of perception and bias. Interesting.

 

[audio2design]

Until we know more about how the mind perceives and shapes our reality, and have a deeper understanding of how placebo works, I don't think its fair to say someone's perception of reality is invalid simply because they cannot prove it under extraordinary circumstances.

What you think, i.e. your feelings, is meaningless. Placebo effects are neither reliably permanent, reliable, nor transferable. I.e. they are of no reliable usefulness to an individual, nor are useful in a group setting. The biggest inoculation against bias is, knowledge. We are not arrogant (well some are), we are simply experienced (and not "audiophile" experience, but real experience) and informed (and really informed, not audiophile "informed").

 

[audio2design]

It is certainly easier to just believe unsupported claims. Nothing really needed other than...belief in their ears?
Why believe anyone else's individual listening experience report, when we all seem to agree on how personal hearing/listening is?

You don't need to be a scientist or engineer to understand this stuff, you just have to actually want to, then put in the time to do it. It isn't hidden behind quantum magic or golden ears, it is accessible to everyone who cares enough to bother.

And a willingness to admit you are wrong, something often lacking in technical audiophiles as well

 

[Wes]

@mistermuddles appears to be a distillation of every subjectivist argument one encounters on 99% of audio related forums and groups. I'm not sure that he is not, starting with his User ID, a very subtle and imaginative troll.

Perhaps the intent is to muddle and disrupt the threads on here.

 

[richard12511]

if there is no method of testing for it, then how the f*** can they know that they are producing it?

I often wonder the same. How do you go about designing something that you have no knowledge of and no ability to measure? Guess and check(listen)? Seems incredibly difficult.

 

[Jimbob54]

To be honest, my first impression and experience of this forum, after posting, was that it was some kind of cult. I was immediately attacked for deviating from the accepted dogma.

The way some of you describe the transformation of new users into experienced users sounds a lot like indoctrination to me. Which is what I have been trying to say all along, and that is, simply, you are substituting one set of beliefs for another set of beliefs and, therefore, subject to the same placebo effects.

There may be a few on here who are able to reach these conclusion on their own based upon their immense knowledge, expertise, and skill, but for the vast majority they are merely followers, consumers, and believers.

If you get to level 69 and donate enough money Amir invites you to see his special measuring tools. He'll even give you a state of the art personal digital audio player to take away.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

What you think, i.e. your feelings, is meaningless. Placebo effects are neither reliably permanent, reliable, nor transferable. I.e. they are of no reliable usefulness to an individual, nor are useful in a group setting. The biggest inoculation against bias is, knowledge. We are not arrogant (well some are), we are simply experienced (and not "audiophile" experience, but real experience) and informed (and really informed, not audiophile "informed").

You're simply speaking from your own experience, perspective, and point of view, which has been informed by your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.

Not everyone believes the same as you, and what we believe can affect our perception of reality.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Perhaps the intent is to muddle and disrupt the threads on here.

For those questioning my name, "muddles" has been my nickname since high school and I have used it as my online handle for some 25+ years.

 

[Mountain Goat]

To be honest, my first impression and experience of this forum, after posting, was that it was some kind of cult. I was immediately attacked for deviating from the accepted dogma.

The way some of you describe the transformation of new users into experienced users sounds a lot like indoctrination to me. Which is what I have been trying to say all along, and that is, simply, you are substituting one set of beliefs for another set of beliefs and, therefore, subject to the same placebo effects.

There may be a few on here who are able to reach these conclusion on their own based upon their immense knowledge, expertise, and skill, but for the vast majority they are merely followers, consumers, and believers.

Facts about how equipment measure in standardized tests aren't "beliefs". They're measurements.

Don't be snotty about it.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Facts about how equipment measure in standardized tests aren't "beliefs". They're measurements.

Don't be snotty about it.

How am I being snotty? Please explain.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

@Mountain Goat I wasn't aware of any tools available that measure the authenticity of ones perception of reality. Maybe they exist, but I don't know about them.