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Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

D

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I don't think you are sure of anything other than trolling. No one is this willingly daft. As you offer nothing of value to this site, I'm putting you on ignore. I'd advise others to do so but you won't last long here anyways. At least you are killing off a very disappointing thread.
You are correct in that I am sure of very little, which is why I question things.
 

BluesDaddy

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You are correct in that I am sure of very little, which is why I question things.
But you don't accept answers. You are a fraud and your "questioning" is simply posing. You revel in your ignorance and refuse to accept any information. You are trolling. You know you are trolling. And most here are coming to that awareness as well.
 

franspambot

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One think they don't realize is that we kind of enjoy calling trolls out here, hence the high drop out rate.
 
D

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Well said. Completely agree.



Same. My first two blinds I ever hosted(had attended a couple before) were:
- Infinity Beta 20 with grills on vs grills off
- Nord Hypex Amp vs Emotiva XPA-3 vs Yamaha AVR

And in both of those blinds, nobody heard any difference between anything. In both cases, it was apparent from the very first switch that this was going to be way more difficult than I thought going in. We didn't do ABX, as the assumption going in (based on everything we'd read/seen) was that there would be obvious "night and day" differences. Luckily we had a decent enough sample size to show that our "preferences" were just random.

I'm pretty sure I could pass the first one now with the better understanding I have (I know to focus only on that top octave-ish).
Based on the AVR measurements we've seen, I'm guessing someone with specific distortion training could likely pass the second, but I'm fairly positive I still couldn't. Even if I thought I could, I'm confident that the differences would be small enough for me to not care(enough to spend money).

That second blind completely shifted me towards pretty much only spending money on speakers. I can afford much better speakers when I don't have to have amps, pre-amps, and DACs that match the price of the speakers :D. I started my audiophile journey over on the Audioholics forums, so luckily I never believed in cables.




Even speaker blinds are humbling to me. Despite some pretty big price differences between some of the speakers I've tested, I'm still never close to 100% sure of my preferences. Speakers definitely sound different, but IMO we (audiophiles) even overstate those differences.
Based on what I have read, I tend to believe what you are saying is true... and I think that I would unlikely be able to tell the differences between gear under certain conditions similar to your own results.

I've not suggested that I or anyone else have "golden ears" in which they can perceive differences in sound quality under these extraordinary conditions. My point all along has been that people do not listen under these conditions normally. Under normal conditions they are using all their faculties to discern or imagine differences between what they hear, and that maybe we do not quite understand how the mind influences our perception of sound yet.
 

Inner Space

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I think what my question is, and maybe I am unable to fully articulate it, is why believing in measurements is better than believing in something else, when, outside of maybe cost, it has little to do with the end result (personal satisfaction/pleasure/etc).. I am just trying to understand the prevailing attitude of superiority, arrogance, intolerance, and contempt here. Because, from my perspective, listening to and enjoying music is a subjective experience where sound quality varies from person to person and cannot be solely determined by measurements alone.
We've had about a hundred years and probably a thousand significant engineers, working hard, making stuff better and better, and now we have what we have, assembled in amazing sci-fi robot factories, packed by robots, tracked around the world by barcodes and computers. All possible because over the century about a trillion measurements have been taken.

Then you open the carton, and you lift out that miracle, and you say, man, those measurements have little to do with the end result. Why say that? Why are you so desperate to believe that you start on this mystical stuff? Asking for a friend.
 
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I think what my question is, and maybe I am unable to fully articulate it, is why believing in measurements is better than believing in something else, when, outside of maybe cost, it has little to do with the end result (personal satisfaction/pleasure/etc).. I am just trying to understand the prevailing attitude of superiority, arrogance, intolerance, and contempt here. Because, from my perspective, listening to and enjoying music is a subjective experience where sound quality varies from person to person and cannot be solely determined by measurements alone.

Maybe it can be determined by measurements alone under extraordinary conditions, but because nobody listens to music that way, it seems to have little affect on the outcome (outside of informing our beliefs).. since so much else of what we hear is influenced by other factors other than hearing alone.
Measurements have little to do with the end results? Haha, you must be kidding, right?
If a piece of audio equipment measures very well for an extensive set of factors, the sound will be reproduced with a very good fidelity to the source.
If you prefer to listen to music with high levels of distortion (subjective preference), well, that's your right, but that's not called HiFi.
Why would sound quality be something subjective? If a SINAD of 90 dB is good enough for your liking (or hearing maybe), fine. But even then, would you say that it's better than a SINAD of, say, 100 dB?
 
D

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We've had about a hundred years and probably a thousand significant engineers, working hard, making stuff better and better, and now we have what we have, assembled in amazing sci-fi robot factories, packed by robots, tracked around the world by barcodes and computers. All possible because over the century about a trillion measurements have been taken.

Then you open the carton, and you lift out that miracle, and you say, man, those measurements have little to do with the end result. Why say that? Why are you so desperate to believe that you start on this mystical stuff? Asking for a friend.
Well, you are right. I mean, I don't discount measurements.. I understand much of the modern would is developed and engineered based on measurements. I'm speaking more directly in terms of what we hear in our rooms, listening to music on our systems that we've built over the years. I enjoy my system quite a bit and I've never considered or studied the measurements of any of it. That doesn't mean measurements don't exist or they aren't playing a large part in what I am hearing. But I have compared two devices under normal listening conditions that sound audibly different to my ears.

I didn't mean to suggest that measurements don't matter at all, sure of course they do. I am talking about when we get to that certain level of performance where people believe that no audible differences can be heard. If some people believe that they can hear differences that measurements and scientific tools deny, I don't see how believing or denying is better or worse.. especially if believing can potentially raise your ceiling for enjoyment in the hobby.
 

RayDunzl

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But I have compared two devices under normal listening conditions that sound audibly different to my ears.
Gee, so have I.

They measure differently, too.

I've also listened to two devices that measure differently.

They sounded the same. Probably both of those exceeded my ability to distinguish by furrowing my brow and staring real hard.
 

Inner Space

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If some people believe that they can hear differences that measurements and scientific tools deny, I don't see how believing or denying is better or worse..
This is exactly the issue. You think reality and superstition are equivalent. Which is OK. The thing about reality is it doesn't care if you believe in it. It just keeps rolling along.
 
D

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Gee, so have I.

They measure differently, too.

I've also listened to two devices that measure differently.

They sounded the same. Probably both of those exceeded my ability to distinguish by furrowing my brow and staring real hard.
Yeah, I didn't really state that appropriately. It was kind of a lazy remark. I was talking about like the differences between 2 DACs where I have heard people claim you shouldn't be able to hear any audible differences... or with 2 preamps that are both supposed to be transparent, etc.
 
D

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This is exactly the issue. You think reality and superstition are equivalent. Which is OK. The thing about reality is it doesn't care if you believe in it. It just keeps rolling along.
I'm not sure we really know what reality is.
 

amirm

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I'm not sure we really know what reality is.
You have lost track it of for sure. Doesn't mean the same is true for the rest of the world.

I once challenged my doctor on his understanding of medicine. Despite having gone to him for years, he just about threw me out of his office! So be careful in thinking know you more than the body of audio research/engineer and those of us to have studied it. Based on your last few posts, you are in danger of being thrown out of here! And oh, turned out my doctor was right and my lay understanding of medicine was wrong.

So I suggest hanging low and start learn about audio all over again. What you think you know, is not reality.

Remember, we fully know the world you live in. The plea is that you learn the world we live in.
 

amirm

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I enjoy my system quite a bit and I've never considered or studied the measurements of any of it.
I enjoy my bluetooth radio in my greenhouse as I plant things. Doesn't mean it produces great sound. What you don't know is that you could have far better sound at no cost or even major savings. You have bought a system based on lay intuition and stuff you have read online. None of that is reliable information.

Reminds of a story I have told many times. I took a biz dev guy that worked for me at Microsoft to my favorite Sushi restaurant in Tokyo fish market (Tsukiji ichiba). Before the food arrived, he kept asking me if I had eaten at this or that sushi place where we both live. I kept saying no and he was giving me the look of, "then you must not know how great sushi is in Seattle." Then the food comes, he takes one bite, and in shock turns to me and says, "forget everything I said! This sushi is in entirely different class!" This is what is waiting for you if you adopt audio science, engineering and what we do here. Allow your past learnings to disappear and learn what this hobby is really about. Don't be presumptuous that you already know what you need to know because you have a system you "enjoy quite a bit."
 

Xulonn

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Perhaps the intent is to muddle and disrupt the threads on here.
Mary McMahon - EasyTechJunkie.com said:
Many people think that the best thing to do with Internet trolls is to ignore them. By refusing to give them anything to feed on, users can continue their discussion and stay focused on the issues they want to talk about. However, it can be tricky to distinguish a concern troll from a devil's advocate or someone who genuinely supports the cause, but does have worries. Tip-offs that someone is a concern troll include a recent registration date, for sites that require registration to post, along with minimal personal details in a user account. Concern trolling also tends to come from people with no commenting or posting history, so if a brand-new user shows up and starts raising doubts, it may be a concern troll.
Troll-B-Gone.jpg
 

Wes

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Well, you are right. I mean, I don't discount measurements.. I understand much of the modern would is developed and engineered based on measurements. I'm speaking more directly in terms of what we hear in our rooms, listening to music on our systems that we've built over the years. I enjoy my system quite a bit and I've never considered or studied the measurements of any of it. That doesn't mean measurements don't exist or they aren't playing a large part in what I am hearing. But I have compared two devices under normal listening conditions that sound audibly different to my ears.

I didn't mean to suggest that measurements don't matter at all, sure of course they do. I am talking about when we get to that certain level of performance where people believe that no audible differences can be heard. If some people believe that they can hear differences that measurements and scientific tools deny, I don't see how believing or denying is better or worse.. especially if believing can potentially raise your ceiling for enjoyment in the hobby.
what is it?
 

Wes

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I enjoy my bluetooth radio in my greenhouse as I plant things. Doesn't mean it produces great sound. What you don't know is that you could have far better sound at no cost or even major savings. You have bought a system based on lay intuition and stuff you have read online. None of that is reliable information.

Reminds of a story I have told many times. I took a biz dev guy that worked for me at Microsoft to my favorite Sushi restaurant in Tokyo fish market (Tsukiji ichiba). Before the food arrived, he kept asking me if I had eaten at this or that sushi place where we both live. I kept saying no and he was giving me the look of, "then you must not know how great sushi is in Seattle." Then the food comes, he takes one bite, and in shock turns to me and says, "forget everything I said! This sushi is in entirely different class!" This is what is waiting for you if you adopt audio science, engineering and what we do here. Allow your past learnings to disappear and learn what this hobby is really about. Don't be presumptuous that you already know what you need to know because you have a system you "enjoy quite a bit."

ok. wait a minute - I'd love to have this place get up to the general level of Seattle sushi - but I long ago adopted science, engineering - yet, there is still a LOT of student mush "sushi" in town
 

SIY

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- the book of trolls
The book of trolls is long and boring
No one can lift the damn thing
It's full of charts and facts and figures
And instructions for listening


The book of trolls has no knowledge in it
In fact that's where knowledge goes to die
Some of it is just transcendental
Most of it is just really dumb
 
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