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Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

Wes

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If not your intent or motivation then apologies.

It is also unfortunate that you encountered some initial "attacks" - if they were such and not simple disagreements. This site is now being inundated by trolls, perhaps due to its soaring presence as shown by internet hit rates, etc. recently. Charlatans don't like this as it deprives them of income (both manfs. and some other internet sites, which support their owners via ad revenue).

But you have also generated a number of oddly worded posts, and many evince a lack of knowledge of science if not audio reproduction.
 

Mountain Goat

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People on ASR rely on measurements AND subjective listening. You're pretending like we don't listen to our gear with your snotty "believer" line.

Just cut it out. And I'm going to take my own advice and tap out.
 

USER

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@Mountain Goat I wasn't aware of any tools available that measure the authenticity of ones perception of reality. Maybe they exist, but I don't know about them.
nOeY7BzEml6vlZQ3dU784PJ19RoRyL8x9sMT2UYW.jpeg


Please put some thought into your posts.
 

raistlin65

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Part of my point is that we don't fully understand how placebo works, and there are plenty of studies regarding sham surgery where there are lasting effects even after it has been revealed. We simply do not fully understand how the mind works and how it shapes what we perceive as reality. I simply think its unfair to judge people with absolute certainty as "audiophools" when we don't have all the answers.

But we do have lots of answers.

There is equipment with measured levels of noise and distortion that are so low, that it is easily arguable to be outside the range of human hearing. And perceptual biases easily explain why every audiophile believes they can hear a difference between devices that should sound the same.

Cognitive biases are not some random thing that only afflict some humans. Or something that you can always overcome if you're aware of it. If you have not yet, it is very much worth reading Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman is Thinking Fast and Slow. It can be a humbling book that can greatly improve your critical thinking skills.

https://marklooi.medium.com/summary-of-kahnemans-thinking-fast-and-slow-3d1c2ea0e6a

And even beyond that, we now have fMRI research that shows that expectation bias happens not only in the cerebral cortex, but also in the auditory processing pathways

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210108120110.htm

So it is "foolish" to deny overwhelming scientific evidence, just because the science doesn't fit what one wants to believe. And no doubt, after somebody has invested a lot of time and money on tons of gear, they want to believe that what they perceive is real.
 

artburda

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I often wonder the same. How do you go about designing something that you have no knowledge of and no ability to measure? Guess and check(listen)? Seems incredibly difficult.
Too dificult. I guess that‘s where the marketing material with flowery language and paid reviews come into play. But in general: I am still surprised that false marketing claims are not illegal. Wouldn‘t everyone win long term if advertisements would be restricted to presenting only the product like it‘s actually going to be used in real life with useful specs? The manufacturers of quality products would win market shares, low quality/ fancy marketing products would cease to exist and the consumer would get the most bang for the buck. Or would this kill the economy?
 

audio2design

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You're simply speaking from your own experience, perspective, and point of view, which has been informed by your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.

Not everyone believes the same as you, and what we believe can affect our perception of reality.

Okay, I am officially writing you off as a total waste of time. You wallow in your own ignorance and spread it around. There is no point in being kind or nice to you any more. NO, I don't speak from my own experience, nor perspective, nor point of view. There is a right and wrong where this conversation is concerned and you are ridiculously wrong. PERCEPTION OF REALITY IS NOT REALITY. Grow the heck up. YOUR perpeption of reality is not portable. On the other hand, reality IS portable. Experience does not change reality. Points of view do not change reality. I don't "believe" the things I say to be true, they are objectively true as they have been tested, validated, verified to the best of our abilities, and cross-correlated.
 

audio2design

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D

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People on ASR rely on measurements AND subjective listening. You're pretending like we don't listen to our gear with your snotty "believer" line.

Just cut it out. And I'm going to take my own advice and tap out.
I think you've misjudged my intention which is easy to do on an internet forum,, you've also put meaning behind my words based on your own subjective interpretation of what I've said.

My whole point, and where I am coming from, is a place of agnosticism. There is nothing snotty about my intentions.
 

Jimbob54

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We are nearing the denouement!
 
D

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Just read @mistermuddles other posts, i.e. his comment about 16 bits and SNR, and some other doozies. We are not dealing with someone who has invested the time to understand their so called hobby. It is like a characature.
Where have I ever commented on SNR or 16 bits?
 

richard12511

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Well, you are at the right place to learn! Many of us came from a similar place, and understanding much of what matters isn't hard, but does require a bit of effort.

Well said. Completely agree.

My audio life is divided into two segments...the time before I did one, and the time after I did one.

Same. My first two blinds I ever hosted(had attended a couple before) were:
- Infinity Beta 20 with grills on vs grills off
- Nord Hypex Amp vs Emotiva XPA-3 vs Yamaha AVR

And in both of those blinds, nobody heard any difference between anything. In both cases, it was apparent from the very first switch that this was going to be way more difficult than I thought going in. We didn't do ABX, as the assumption going in (based on everything we'd read/seen) was that there would be obvious "night and day" differences. Luckily we had a decent enough sample size to show that our "preferences" were just random.

I'm pretty sure I could pass the first one now with the better understanding I have (I know to focus only on that top octave-ish).
Based on the AVR measurements we've seen, I'm guessing someone with specific distortion training could likely pass the second, but I'm fairly positive I still couldn't. Even if I thought I could, I'm confident that the differences would be small enough for me to not care(enough to spend money).

That second blind completely shifted me towards pretty much only spending money on speakers. I can afford much better speakers when I don't have to have amps, pre-amps, and DACs that match the price of the speakers :D. I started my audiophile journey over on the Audioholics forums, so luckily I never believed in cables.


Incredibly humbling, but it totally eliminated my susceptibility to the absolute bullshit that pervades too much of the 'High End' audio world.

Even speaker blinds are humbling to me. Despite some pretty big price differences between some of the speakers I've tested, I'm still never close to 100% sure of my preferences. Speakers definitely sound different, but IMO we (audiophiles) even overstate those differences.
 

USER

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I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest. Are you saying that everything real is physical and can be seen with the human eyes?
I don't think you are sure of anything other than trolling. No one is this willingly daft. As you offer nothing of value to this site, I'm putting you on ignore. I'd advise others to do so but you won't last long here anyways. At least you are killing off a very disappointing thread.
 

audio2design

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Do you feel the same way about indigenous people, or people who exist within world views and beliefs outside of western civilization? Is this the same approach you would take in re-educating them and orienting them toward you perception of reality?

Is saying WTF against forum rules? If so, I must apologize in advance, but WTF? I think anyone who ignores reality and tries to promote an alternate view of reality needs to give their head a shake, and frankly I think that doubly about anyone from a disadvantaged community such as many indigenous people as it does nothing to help them, but only sets back others in their community who may trust by association. It is nothing but arrogance and laziness disguised as cultural sensitivity. You don't raise yourself up by attempting to tear down the accomplishments of others.

There is no such thing as "beliefs outside of western civilization". Anyone who has travelled the world at all and truly interacted with the people know that people in China, people in India, people in Brazil, people in Africa, etc. who have any level of education or live in any sort of modern society think pretty much the same as people in western cultures. They may have different views about family importance or work life balance, but other than that, we all have remarkably similar views on "knowledge" and reality.
 
D

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I don't think you are sure of anything other than trolling. No one is this willingly daft. As you offer nothing of value to this site, I'm putting you on ignore. I'd advise others to do so but you won't last long here anyways. At least you are killing off a very disappointing thread.
If you don't wish to engage in the dialogue then don't. Nobody is forcing you to. I've never said I was here to teach anyone anything or offer any value to anyone.
 

audio2design

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Jimbob54

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If you don't wish to engage in the dialogue then don't. Nobody is forcing you to. I've never said I was here to teach anyone anything or offer any value to anyone.
And in that regard your time here has been remarkably consistent.
 
D

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Is saying WTF against forum rules? If so, I must apologize in advance, but WTF? I think anyone who ignores reality and tries to promote an alternate view of reality needs to give their head a shake, and frankly I think that doubly about anyone from a disadvantaged community such as many indigenous people as it does nothing to help them, but only sets back others in their community who may trust by association. It is nothing but arrogance and laziness disguised as cultural sensitivity. You don't raise yourself up by attempting to tear down the accomplishments of others.

There is no such thing as "beliefs outside of western civilization". Anyone who has travelled the world at all and truly interacted with the people know that people in China, people in India, people in Brazil, people in Africa, etc. who has any level of education or live in any sort of modern society think pretty much the same as people in western cultures. They may have different views about family important or work life balance, but other than that, we all have remarkably similar views on "knowledge" and reality.
You are right that people educated in the same way will have similar beliefs. My point is that what we perceive to be real or not can be different depending on what we believe. I personally don't believe that our current understanding of science can explain everything.
 
D

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I don't think you are sure of anything other than trolling. No one is this willingly daft. As you offer nothing of value to this site, I'm putting you on ignore. I'd advise others to do so but you won't last long here anyways. At least you are killing off a very disappointing thread.
You are correct in that I am sure of very little, which is why I question things.
 
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