Poll: Revel 226Be + sub or Revel 228Be (no sub)

[JackStraw5877]

Dear members, I have been reading the forums here exhaustively and studying frequency response graphs, etc., and I simply cannot come to a good conclusion about which might be better for my space. I'm very curious what the readership here has to say about it so I decided to make a quick poll (and thought it might spur some interesting conversation as well). Here's more info relevant to my decision:

Gear: Benchmark HPA4, DAC3, and a single AHB2
Space: 13 x 15 room in a basement (treatments are possible, although not yet implemented)
Listening Position: Can be as far back as 10 feet max.

Part of why I'm having trouble deciding here is that the two options are nearly identical in cost, right around $10k for either option - I am looking at a REL S/510 that hooks up to the AHB2 via REL Bassline Blue cable (https://rel.net/shop/accessories/bassline-blue/) if I decide to go with the 226Be + sub option.

Thanks in advance for your participation and I'm excited to see the results of this.

 

[Blumlein 88]

In a larger room I might say differently. In your room I'd say go with the smaller speaker and the sub. As for the REL, that cable is likely just BS or they've implemented a filter into them. Either way I wouldn't buy such a product. There are other very capable subs you could get other than REL. If they need this special ridiculously expensive cable there is snake oil in them somewhere.

 

[JackStraw5877]

In a larger room I might say differently. In your room I'd say go with the smaller speaker and the sub. As for the REL, that cable is likely just BS or they've implemented a filter into them. Either way I wouldn't buy such a product. There are other very capable subs you could get other than REL. If they need this special ridiculously expensive cable there is snake oil in them somewhere.

Thanks for the feedback. In your view, hypothetically, approximately how much larger would my room have to be for you to consider voting for the 228's with no sub?

 

[Blumlein 88]

It is possible you have a big enough room. In general larger speakers with drivers spread out a bit more need a bit of space between you and the speaker to sound right. Or maybe I'm all wet on that. Plus your dimensions are going to mean some peaky bass response. So having a sub to move somewhere else might come in handy. If you had a longer, more narrow room it might matter less. So in general in a small room a sub separate from the speaker gives more options. That is true of a larger room too of course. Just maybe not as large a difference between separate sub and single tower speakers.

I'm thinking you might have the speakers at least 3 feet from the front wall, and you likely aren't sitting at the rear wall. So you could end up maybe 9 feet or even 8 feet from the speakers. This might work, but I'd think it will work easier (and better) with a bit more distance. If your room were 50% longer I might go with the larger speakers.

Of course a real audiophile would want the larger speakers and later add a sub too in the larger room.

 

[JackStraw5877]

It is possible you have a big enough room. In general larger speakers with drivers spread out a bit more need a bit of space between you and the speaker to sound right. Or maybe I'm all wet on that. Plus your dimensions are going to mean some peaky bass response. So having a sub to move somewhere else might come in handy. If you had a longer, more narrow room it might matter less. So in general in a small room a sub separate from the speaker gives more options. That is true of a larger room too of course. Just maybe not as large a difference between separate sub and single tower speakers.

I'm thinking you might have the speakers at least 3 feet from the front wall, and you likely aren't sitting at the rear wall. So you could end up maybe 9 feet or even 8 feet from the speakers. This might work, but I'd think it will work easier (and better) with a bit more distance. If your room were 50% longer I might go with the larger speakers.

Of course a real audiophile would want the larger speakers and later add a sub too in the larger room.

... might be high-time to tell my folks "don't mind the noise, your son is just blasting out some walls to make room for higher SPL"...

Thanks again. That's all great insight and very helpful.

 

[Sancus]

Instead of buying an overpriced REL sub, buy two 12" sealed Arendals or SVS or Rythmik or whatever is available in your area and integrate with a miniDSP Also I voted for the sub obv.

 

[JackStraw5877]

Instead of buying an overpriced REL sub, buy two 12" sealed Arendals or SVS or Rythmik or whatever is available in your area and integrate with a miniDSP Also I voted for the sub obv.

Thank you Sancus...

Would/could/should a miniDSP negate the DAC3 or work with it? I suppose I should do more research into implementing DSP into the system.

 

[sweetchaos]

Agree with Sancus about REL subs.

There's lots of well-measuring subs on the market. Take a look at my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet to help you narrow down the sub(s) for your needs.

 

[Sancus]

Thank you Sancus...

Would/could/should a miniDSP negate the DAC3 or work with it? I suppose I should do more research into implementing DSP into the system.

Well, subwoofer integration is a whole thing. I just threw out the easiest suggestion. If you run the line-outs from your DAC through the miniDSP, then the miniDSP's SINAD(which is typically worse except for the SHD which is quite good) would bottleneck it. However, if you're using a computer as source, you could use a digital crossover and then just add any cheap DAC for the subwoofer outs, SINAD doesn't really matter below 100hz.

You'll have to do your own research on that, it's honestly not trivial to do it properly. So that is one point in favor of the no-sub route: It's much simpler. But 2 subs will give you much smoother and more powerful low bass than the larger floorstander.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

You should get the F226Be with two subs if you can afford it. Two subs are always better than one. Two Rythmik F12SE's should run you about the same as the Rel S/510, have the same glossy finish, and sound much better. You can use the sub as a crossover, but you will get even better results using an external active crossover like a MiniDSP SHD.

 

[JackStraw5877]

Could I slide a MiniDSP SHD into the chain IN PLACE of the DAC3 to use as my DSP/crossover AND my DAC (for the 226Be + sub scenario)?

If yes, would there be any inherent advantages of doing so?

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Could I slide a MiniDSP SHD into the chain IN PLACE of the DAC3 to use as my DSP/crossover AND my DAC (for the 226Be + sub scenario)?

If yes, would there be any inherent advantages of doing so?

Yes you could. You would have the advantage of only having one level of digital to analog conversion. Otherwise your digital source would be converted to analog in the DAC3, the MiniDSP SHD would convert that analog signal back into digital to do the crossover and DSP, and convert those digital signals back into analog to be sent to your amplifier and subwoofer. Using something like the MiniDSP SHD as the DAC, crossover, and DSP will save you one level of unnecessary conversion.

 

[Steve Dallas]

We have your room dimensions. What is your seating distance?

Subs are great, especially multiple subs, but proper integration is actually somewhat difficult. As such, I default to recommending speakers with better bass extension and skipping the subs in 2 channel systems.

However, if you have the chops and are willing to do the work with something like the MiniDSP SHD in place of your DAC3, you can achieve superb results with subs.

 

[samysound]

Yes you could. You would have the advantage of only having one level of digital to analog conversion. Otherwise your digital source would be converted to analog in the DAC3, the MiniDSP SHD would convert that analog signal back into digital to do the crossover and DSP, and convert those digital signals back into analog to be sent to your amplifier and subwoofer. Using something like the MiniDSP SHD as the DAC, crossover, and DSP will save you one level of unnecessary conversion.

Could I slide a MiniDSP SHD into the chain IN PLACE of the DAC3 to use as my DSP/crossover AND my DAC (for the 226Be + sub scenario)?

If yes, would there be any inherent advantages of doing so?

you would also save some dollars going with SHD and gain some music streaming features

 

[JackStraw5877]

We have your room dimensions. What is your seating distance?

Subs are great, especially multiple subs, but proper integration is actually somewhat difficult. As such, I default to recommending speakers with better bass extension and skipping the subs in 2 channel systems.

However, if you have the chops and are willing to do the work with something like the MiniDSP SHD in place of your DAC3, you can achieve superb results with subs.

Thanks Steve, I was hoping to hear from someone that MAY have voted for the F228Be (no sub) option; it sounds like proper integration is not a trivial factor... appreciate the feedback.

EDIT: I am approximately 30 days from being able to execute on this, and thus, my listening position can be as far back as 10 feet max. I've added this data to my original post.

 

[JayGilb]

Part of why I'm having trouble deciding here is that the two options are nearly identical in cost, right around $10k for either option - I am looking at a REL S/510 that hooks up to the AHB2 via REL Bassline Blue cable (https://rel.net/shop/accessories/bassline-blue/) if I decide to go with the 226Be + sub option.

From the above bassline-blue link: "The special and unique characteristics of our filter board are known only to our engineers and within this circuit lies the key to designing cables optimized for REL Sub Bass Systems."

If the filter is proprietary and requires a custom cable to benefit from the design, why would they not give one for each sub purchased ?
Yes, I know the answer; it's all snake oil marketing, but such brazen bullshit makes my blood boil.

 

[JackStraw5877]

From the above bassline-blue link: "The special and unique characteristics of our filter board are known only to our engineers and within this circuit lies the key to designing cables optimized for REL Sub Bass Systems."

If the filter is proprietary and requires a custom cable to benefit from the design, why would they not give one for each sub purchased ?
Yes, I know the answer; it's all snake oil marketing, but such brazen bullshit makes my blood boil.

Haha Jay, appreciate y'all setting me straight on this. I was suspicious and have since officially retired this as an option (thankfully as this saves a fair bit of $$$).

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Thanks Steve, I was hoping to hear from someone that MAY have voted for the F228Be (no sub) option; it sounds like proper integration is not a trivial factor... appreciate the feedback.

EDIT: I am approximately 30 days from being able to execute on this, and thus, my listening position can be as far back as 10 feet max. I've added this data to my original post.

IMO the F226Be is a better measuring speaker than the F228Be. The F228Be has a great spinorama and a very smooth SPL and directivity response, but it is plagued by noticeable baffle diffraction that gives it a less-than-optimal off-axis response. The F226Be has a spinorama that is almost as good while having a more even off-axis response because of its narrower baffle. The F226Be can also get very loud as per Erin's review, so with subwoofers you should not really be limited in any way.

 

[samysound]

Dear members, I have been reading the forums here exhaustively and studying frequency response graphs, etc., and I simply cannot come to a good conclusion about which might be better for my space. I'm very curious what the readership here has to say about it so I decided to make a quick poll (and thought it might spur some interesting conversation as well). Here's more info relevant to my decision:

Gear: Benchmark HPA4, DAC3, and a single AHB2
Space: 13 x 15 room in a basement (treatments are possible, although not yet implemented)
Listening Position: Can be as far back as 10 feet max.

Part of why I'm having trouble deciding here is that the two options are nearly identical in cost, right around $10k for either option - I am looking at a REL S/510 that hooks up to the AHB2 via REL Bassline Blue cable (https://rel.net/shop/accessories/bassline-blue/) if I decide to go with the 226Be + sub option.

Thanks in advance for your participation and I'm excited to see the results of this.

if open to other options, you may want to consider the Genelec 8361a if your budget is ~$10K

 

[JayGilb]

Haha Jay, appreciate y'all setting me straight on this. I was suspicious and have since officially retired this as an option (thankfully as this saves a fair bit of $$$).

If they charged $50 for the cable, I would probably get one just for the convenience when purchasing a REL sub, but the $400 - $700 additional price is crazy.