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Please help me get good bass with LS50 WII + KC62

Tangband

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You are struggling with Room Modes, which will cause significant dips (up to -20dB) and peaks (up to +20dB) in your signal below ca 250Hz. The peaks cause resonances and that boomy sound. We all experience it. Good news the peaks can be dealt with. The dips only by adding several subs.

There are many ways how to approach this, but the best solutions involve some sort of digital Room EQ and frequency response measurements. Doing it manually, like you, takes a lot of experience, a lot of time and still has no guarantee of success.

Easiest.
Get an AVR eg with Audyssey or Dirac and let the automated system do it’s job. The boomy bass (room resonances) will be addressed with this already. This needs the LFE channel.

More advanced.
Get a UMIK1 measurement mic and REW (free) to measure the frequency response yourself and enter the calculated EQ filters in a Software EQ eg APO EQ, Moode etc of your choosing.

Advanced.
As described in „more advanced“, in addition get a DSP eg MiniDSP to do the EQ filtering , plus up to 3 additional subs and optimize the bass distribution in your room by using the MSO software (free).
Before doing all this - its better to install the speakers in the room where they sound the best, with less boomy bass.
 

bo_knows

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The main reason that people experience less good bass and integration is often wrong installing of the main speakers .
The main speakers must play good bass all by themselves , before you integrate them to a subwoofer. You have to find the right placement in the room for them .

1. Turn off your subwoofer .

2. Use the tunemethod to find the best place for the speakers in the room where your WII plays bass tunes the best without subwoofer.

3. When this is done - If you have only one subwoofer , place it exactly between your WII at the same speakerwall. Try 70 Hz crossover as a start . Turn on the subwoofer . Put a sock in the bass tubes for the WII, making them closed boxes .

4. Find the right volume for the subwoofer to gel with the bass tunes from your WII .
Are you suggesting placing the subwoofer in the middle of the front wall?

Please feel free to share your thoughts on why this would be the place for the subwoofer location cause I can't see how this would be an optimal placement for one subwoofer with a 70-80Hz crossover point. Usually, nulls are in the middle of the room depending on the length of the wall and the frequency of the wave. Just curious...

1655752846054.png
 

Tangband

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Are you suggesting placing the subwoofer in the middle of the front wall?

Please feel free to share your thoughts why this would be the place for the subwoofer location cause I can't see how this would be an optimal placement for one subwoofer with 70-80Hz crossover point.

View attachment 213812
No, in the middle of both front loudspeakers , not especially in the middle of the front wall. This depends on where the main speakers sound best.
Only one subwoofer is a big compromise so this is a way to integrate the sub in the best possible way without damaging the sound to much . Two subwoofers in stereo is much better.
 
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bo_knows

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No, in the middle of both front loudspeakers. This depends on where the main speakers sound best.
Only one subwoofer is a big compromise so this is a way to integrate the sub in the best possible way without damaging the sound to much . Two subwoofers in stereo is much better.
Well, for the best stereo imaging, speakers should form a perfect triangle with MLP in a symmetrical room.

I would think anything less than that would be a compromise. Symmetry is essential.

1655753635085.png
 

Tangband

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Well, for the best stereo imaging, speakers should form a perfect triangle with MLP in a symmetrical room.

I would think everything less than that would be a compromise. Symmetry is essential.

View attachment 213813
The install method I prefer is called the tunemethod. Its a method where you listen to the melodies in the music, listening for the bass tunes and place your two speakers where they sound the best in a specific room. This method was invented in the 70:thies by Ivor Tiefenbrun at Linn products and explained further by Lejonclou. This is also a method thats very exact and precise. Every different room demands different placement of the speakers for this method, so theres no other rule than listening for the melodies. The placement of the two speakers in the room is best where the tunes are the easiest to follow.
Lejonklou explains this method in a very good way here:

I have used the triangle method or 1:1,18 distances a lot before, so I know there are some spatial advantages with those rules. But this thread asked for good bass integration so I explained the tunemethod instead.
 
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HarmonicTHD

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Before doing all this - its better to install the speakers in the room where they sound the best, with less boomy bass.
Welcome to physics. If you don’t have a boomy bass than you might have hit a null. No way to “escape” the room influence. Just measurements and EQ will help (next to much more elaborate room treatment).
 

HarmonicTHD

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The install method I prefer is called the tunemethod. Its a method where you listen to the melodies in the music, listening for the bass tunes and place your two speakers where they sound the best in a specific room. This method was invented in the 70:thies by Ivor Tiefenbrun at Linn products and explained further by Lejonclou. This is also a method thats very exact and precise. Every different room demands different placement of the speakers for this method, so theres no other rule than listening for the melodies. The placement of the two speakers in the room is best where the tunes are the easiest to follow.
Lejonklou explains this method in a very good way here:

I have used the triangle method or 1:1,18 distances a lot before, so I know there are some spatial advantages with those rules. But this thread asked for good bass integration so I explained the tunemethod instead.
This is so much flawed in so many ways. The essential is that it relies on your hearing which is inherently flawed and biased. And you waste hours in doing so.

Get a 100USD Umik and REW(free) and you will find the best position in a fraction of time and reliably.
 

Vacceo

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Welcome to physics. If you don’t have a boomy bass than you might have hit a null. No way to “escape” the room influence. Just measurements and EQ will help (next to much more elaborate room treatment).
Boomy can be toned down, but nulls cannot "be given more volume". The physics of low frequencies in a confined space are a nightmare indeed.
 

Tangband

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Welcome to physics. If you don’t have a boomy bass than you might have hit a null. No way to “escape” the room influence. Just measurements and EQ will help (next to much more elaborate room treatment).
Agree - but You can not throw up two loudspeakers in a room randomly and expect it to sound good, not even after room correction. The result will always be better with optimal placement of the loudspeakers in the room , before considering eq.
 

Tangband

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This is so much flawed in so many ways. The essential is that it relies on your hearing which is inherently flawed and biased. And you waste hours in doing so.

Get a 100USD Umik and REW(free) and you will find the best position in a fraction of time and reliably.
What you say here is entirely wrong . You have to trust your ears when you listen to melodies.

I have done years with experimenting with different room correction programs and correct placement of the speakers is absolutely mandatory before doing anything else.
Its not the measurement mic thats gonna be satisfied - its your ears and brain that listen to the music. This is why you have a sound system - to listen to music.

With that said- I do use GLM room-correction for my Genelecs, but this is applied only after doing the correct setup of my speakers, using tunemethod.
If one do this, much less dsp correction will be needed and the sound will be better.

This is not controversial at all.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Agree - but You can not throw up two loudspeakers in a room randomly and expect it to sound good, not even after room correction. The result will always be better with optimal placement of the loudspeakers in the room , before considering eq.
REW has integrated a room mode simulator, which at least for rectangular rooms gets you a rough idea. Enter your room dimensions plus the number and type of speaker (mains, subs etc) and move the speakers with the mouse while observing the frequency response (works below the Schroeder frequency).
 

HarmonicTHD

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What you say here is entirely wrong . You have to trust your ears when you listen to melodies.

I have done years with experimenting with different room correction programs and correct placement of the speakers is absolutely mandatory.
Its not the measurement mic thats gonna be satisfied - its your ears and brain that listen to the music. This is why you have a sound system - to listen to music.

With that said- I do use GLM room-correction for my Genelecs, but this is applied only after doing the correct setup of my speakers, using tunemethod.
If one do this, much less dsp correction will be needed and the sound will be better.

This is not controversial at all.
To each it’s own.
 

Willem

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We seem to be discussing two different issues: optimal crossover settings and room integration. Unless you make some proper measurements there is no way for you to know what is going on. And I can promise you that you will be horrified by the result. Anyway, first get the crossover settings right. Begin with measuring the system without the sub. Move the speakers and the listening position for best result, accepting domestic constraints, of course. Peaks above the so called Schroeder frequency (200-300 Hz ? in a smallish room) cannot be equalized and demand damping. Below that, the problem is that of room modes. Next, add the subwoofer and try to find a setting for the crossovers that gives you the flattest transition. This again will require quite a few measurements. In your case, the good news is that the sub sports high pass filtering, so you can push the crossover to something like 80-100 Hz. Next, move the sub around for the smallest number of peaks, and particularly the fewest and smallest dips. Next equalize the sub. For that, I would recommend the Antimode 8033. This is a small automatic dsp eq system that connects at line level and only acts on the sub. I have used it with great effect. It is recommended to place the sub in a front corner to get maximum output and extension and fewest dips, and then use the Antimode to tame the peaks. It works very well for one listening position, but if you want to equalize a wider area the results are less impressive unless you add a second sub (that is physics for you).
The advantage of the Antimode 8033 is its simplicity and modest price. If you want better results you have to invest in a second sub (a cheap one will do) and spend time with Multiple Sub Optimizer and a small minidsp dsp box.
 

Tangband

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Willem , you wrote :

”Move the speakers and the listening position for best result, accepting domestic constraints, of course. Peaks above the so called Schroeder frequency (200-300 Hz ? in a smallish room) cannot be equalized and demand damping.”

This is absolutely correct . I might add that if you can put the loudspeakers where they really sound best without domestic constrains its the absolutely best method . After this is done - apply roomcorrection below 200 Hz .

Its very important to understand that every room correction program also make the sound slightly worse in other ways , so such programs ( antimode, REW, audysseus and such ) is no magic bullet for a good sound .
 
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bo_knows

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We seem to be discussing two different issues: optimal crossover settings and room integration. Unless you make some proper measurements there is no way for you to know what is going on. And I can promise you that you will be horrified by the result. Anyway, first get the crossover settings right. Begin with measuring the system without the sub. Move the speakers and the listening position for best result, accepting domestic constraints, of course. Peaks above the so called Schroeder frequency (200-300 Hz ? in a smallish room) cannot be equalized and demand damping. Below that, the problem is that of room modes. Next, add the subwoofer and try to find a setting for the crossovers that gives you the flattest transition. This again will require quite a few measurements. In your case, the good news is that the sub sports high pass filtering, so you can push the crossover to something like 80-100 Hz. Next, move the sub around for the smallest number of peaks, and particularly the fewest and smallest dips. Next equalize the sub. For that, I would recommend the Antimode 8033. This is a small automatic dsp eq system that connects at line level and only acts on the sub. I have used it with great effect. It is recommended to place the sub in a front corner to get maximum output and extension and fewest dips, and then use the Antimode to tame the peaks. It works very well for one listening position, but if you want to equalize a wider area the results are less impressive unless you add a second sub (that is physics for you).
The advantage of the Antimode 8033 is its simplicity and modest price. If you want better results you have to invest in a second sub (a cheap one will do) and spend time with Multiple Sub Optimizer and a small minidsp dsp box.
Excellent response.
 
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