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Please help me get good bass with LS50 WII + KC62

PrTv

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Hi

I came across this forum searching for solutions/suggestions/tips to properly setup my speakers/sub-woofer. I found some discussions in this forum but not specifically for WII + KC62 (that discussion was for LS50 Meta).

I bought a pair of LS50 WII and KC62 a week ago, and I'm struggling to get a good result. I couldn't get good / punchy / tight bass out of this setup. Bass is boomy and the setup sounds quite flat (lack dynamic).

Below are details of my setup:
- LS50 WII on KEF's S2 Stand
- Sub is connected with the right speaker / close to the wall (also tried the left one but got the same result).
Sub-Placement.jpg

- Below is the setup - I know it looks weird, but I set it up like this to fix the wake up issue. With default setting, KC62 only wakes up with moderate/loud volume and may turn off mid-song for bass-light songs. KEF guy suggested this setup as a workaround.
Sub-Settings.jpg

With this setting, the sub will not use LFE signal and I have to set it up like this in KEF Connect. Basically, sending the whole band to the sub and use the sub's crossover to determine the cut-in point. Also the volume to determine the sub's output. This can resolve wake-up problem.
KC.jpg

Also note that the Phase is 180, as after several rounds of testing, I found that reversing the phase give me a bit deeper bass.

Then, to the setup, from the manual, it's suggested that there should be some gap when the speakers are "rolled off" and the sub will "cut in" to prevent bass bump, so I set the speakers to roll off around 65 and sub's crossover to 45.

Also note that I tried countless combinations of high-pass / sub out and various sub's EQ (e.g. Room / Wall / Corner), but couldn't get satisfactory result.

Also I tried that "sub crawl" trick (swapping sub/seat positions and crawl around / using sound analyzer app on my phone to measure low freq to find the best location), but to be honest... the freq/spectrum measured were pretty much the same across the room. This setup is in my bedroom (4*5 Sqm) with bed/cabinet/tv etc. So I ended up leaving the sub where it's most convenient to plug in and out of the way.

Lastly... in spite of the wake-up issue, I also tried using the app's default setting (selecting KC62 / selecting LFE + volume at 3PM and sub-out at 45 / high-pass at 70), but still couldn't get good bass.

I listen mostly to jazz/pop... for songs like I Don't Want To Hear It Anymore (Shelby Lynne) / My Love Is (Diana Krall) / Cry (if you want to) (Holly Cole), bass is quite boomy and doesn't go as deep as it should (I have some good headphones with proper amplification (e.g. Focal's Utopia/ZMF Verite Closed) so I know how the bass should sound like in those songs.

Any suggestion please?
 
Last edited:

HeadDoc12

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Have you tried calling KEF? I have your setup, but with 2 KC62s, I had some issues in the beginning and someone talked me through the settings.
 
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Propheticus

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In acoustic music there isn't much below 30-40Hz. I think your crossover points are rather low. Perhaps try 90 and 70Hz.
Also (lack of) punch or boomy sounds like you could have issues in higher (150Hz) range of bass. It might not be about the sub, but the speakers' location and EQ. Is there room correction or EQ you can use?
 
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HarmonicTHD

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Hi

I came across this forum searching for solutions/suggestions/tips to properly setup my speakers/sub-woofer. I found some discussions in this forum but not specifically for WII + KC62 (that discussion was for LS50 Meta).

I bought a pair of LS50 WII and KC62 a week ago, and I'm struggling to get a good result. I couldn't get good / punchy / tight bass out of this setup. Bass is boomy and the setup sounds quite flat (lack dynamic).

Below are details of my setup:
- LS50 WII on KEF's S2 Stand
- Sub is connected with the right speaker / close to the wall (also tried the left one but got the same result).
View attachment 207008

- Below is the setup - I know it looks weird, but I set it up like this to fix the wake up issue. With default setting, KC62 only wakes up with moderate/loud volume and may turn off mid-song for bass-light songs. KEF guy suggested this setup as a workaround.
View attachment 207007

With this setting, the sub will not use LFE signal and I have to set it up like this in KEF Connect. Basically, sending the whole band to the sub and use the sub's crossover to determine the cut-in point. Also the volume to determine the sub's output. This can resolve wake-up problem.
View attachment 207009

Also note that the Phase is 180, as after several rounds of testing, I found that reversing the phase give me a bit deeper bass.

Then, to the setup, from the manual, it's suggested that there should be some gap when the speakers are "rolled off" and the sub will "cut in" to prevent bass bump, so I set the speakers to roll off around 65 and sub's crossover to 45.

Also note that I tried countless combinations of high-pass / sub out and various sub's EQ (e.g. Room / Wall / Corner), but couldn't get satisfactory result.

Also I tried that "sub crawl" trick (swapping sub/seat positions and crawl around / using sound analyzer app on my phone to measure low freq to find the best location), but to be honest... the freq/spectrum measured were pretty much the same across the room. This setup is in my bedroom (4*5 Sqm) with bed/cabinet/tv etc. So I ended up leaving the sub where it's most convenient to plug in and out of the way.

Lastly... in spite of the wake-up issue, I also tried using the app's default setting (selecting KC62 / selecting LFE + volume at 3PM and sub-out at 45 / high-pass at 70), but still couldn't get good bass.

I listen mostly to jazz/pop... for songs like I Don't Want To Hear It Anymore (Shelby Lynne) / My Love Is (Diana Krall) / Cry (if you want to) (Holly Cole), bass is quite boomy and doesn't go as deep as it should (I have some good headphones with proper amplification (e.g. Focal's Utopia/ZMF Verite Closed) so I know how the bass should sound like in those songs.

Any suggestion please?
You are struggling with Room Modes, which will cause significant dips (up to -20dB) and peaks (up to +20dB) in your signal below ca 250Hz. The peaks cause resonances and that boomy sound. We all experience it. Good news the peaks can be dealt with. The dips only by adding several subs.

There are many ways how to approach this, but the best solutions involve some sort of digital Room EQ and frequency response measurements. Doing it manually, like you, takes a lot of experience, a lot of time and still has no guarantee of success.

Easiest.
Get an AVR eg with Audyssey or Dirac and let the automated system do it’s job. The boomy bass (room resonances) will be addressed with this already. This needs the LFE channel.

More advanced.
Get a UMIK1 measurement mic and REW (free) to measure the frequency response yourself and enter the calculated EQ filters in a Software EQ eg APO EQ, Moode etc of your choosing.

Advanced.
As described in „more advanced“, in addition get a DSP eg MiniDSP to do the EQ filtering , plus up to 3 additional subs and optimize the bass distribution in your room by using the MSO software (free).
 
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P

PrTv

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Thanks everyone for your input!
Have you tried calling KEF? I have your setup, but with 2 KC62s, I had some issues in the beginning and someone talked me through the settings.
Unfortunately where I live KEF support is not available. In any case, I believe I tried pretty much all possible settings/configurations and none seemed to help.
In acoustic music there isn't much below 30-40Hz. I think your crossover points are rather low. Perhaps try 90 and 70Hz.
Also (lack of) punch or boomy sounds like you could have issues in higher (150Hz) range of bass. It might not be about the sub, but the speakers' location and EQ. Is there room correction or EQ you can use?
Also... unfortunately, my setup doesn't support any form of EQ at all... apart from the EQ provided in KEP Connect. My main source (apart from Tidal) is Aurender music server, and as good as it is, it doesn't support any kind of sonic alteration, so EQ is out of question.

You are struggling with Room Modes, which will cause significant dips (up to -20dB) and peaks (up to +20dB) in your signal below ca 250Hz. The peaks cause resonances and that boomy sound. We all experience it. Good news the peaks can be dealt with. The dips only by adding several subs.

There are many ways how to approach this, but the best solutions involve some sort of digital Room EQ and frequency response measurements. Doing it manually, like you, takes a lot of experience, a lot of time and still has no guarantee of success.

Easiest.
Get an AVR eg with Audyssey or Dirac and let the automated system do it’s job. The boomy bass (room resonances) will be addressed with this already. This needs the LFE channel.

More advanced.
Get a UMIK1 measurement mic and REW (free) to measure the frequency response yourself and enter the calculated EQ filters in a Software EQ eg APO EQ, Moode etc of your choosing.

Advanced.
As described in „more advanced“, in addition get a DSP eg MiniDSP to do the EQ filtering , plus up to 3 additional subs and optimize the bass distribution in your room by using the MSO software (free).
Thanks for your detailed comments... it seems there is no fast/quick way to resolve my issue. Some kinds of EQ seem to be mandatory to fix my problem. As I only use the sub with my LS50 WII, and freq adjustment in KEF Connect app is very limited, it seems LS50 WII + KC62 users will stuck with trial and error method, unless for people who use Roon as their source.
 

MarcosCh

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Also... unfortunately, my setup doesn't support any form of EQ at all... apart from the EQ provided in KEP Connect. My main source (apart from Tidal) is Aurender music server, and as good as it is, it doesn't support any kind of sonic alteration, so EQ is out of question.
Can your server stream to a separate streamer? In this case you only need a raspberry pi, an usb dac, a measuring mic, read the instructions below, and you already have access to eq and room correction for ca 300 eur. You won't regret!
edit: you don't even need a dac, with an even cheaper spdif hat for the pi you are good to go, and your bill probably <200

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rpi4-camilladsp-tutorial.29656/
 
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HarmonicTHD

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Yes. Moode or other players together with Camilla Dsp is a great software EQ solution.

Further software EQ solutions can be found here. Either way get a UMIK1 mic for 100USD and become familiar with REW (free). It will take a lot of guesswork out of the otherwise frustrating manual process. Plus it will give you confirmation of whatever you change and it’s effect.

 

Puddingbuks

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Your crossover frequency maybe is way to low. Try 80 or 90hz.

Maybe the hardware knob mixes with the software setting, so try to set the knob way higher.
 

Tim Link

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One possible solution if you're just wanting to optimize the primary listening position is to put the sub right behind you, lifting it up so the top of it is about shoulder height when you are seated. Since it will be so close to your ears you'll need to turn it down until the bass sounds like it's at the appropriate level to match the main speakers. If it's possible you can add some appropriate time delay too. This only works for the one listening position since you won't hear enough bass anywhere else in the room. I've tried it in a small bedroom with some bookshelf speakers and was treated to very smooth bass that blended naturally with the sound stage.
 

bo_knows

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You have great gear but it seems you don't have good room acoustics or room acoustics treatments.

As HarmonicTHD said: "You are struggling with Room Modes, which will cause significant dips (up to -20dB) and peaks (up to +20dB)".

This is just like buying a C5,6,7 corvette with all seasons tires and wondering why can't you launch the car and get the advertised 0-60 times.

I feel for you but it is what it is. Getting a tight bass (70-200Hz) out of the small untreated room is problematic.

Now, if you are willing to swim in fiberglass ( being sarcastic here ;)) or other absorbing materials, do let us know and we can set you on the right path.
 

HeadDoc12

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Is buying a second KC62 an option? And then returning it if it doesn't solve the problem? Expensive solution, I know; but you've alrwady invested a lot...
 

bo_knows

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Ok, I re-read your post and try to analyze it a little deeper.

1) I couldn't get good / punchy / tight bass out of this setup
IMHO this is not the speaker setup for the tight bass. We will have to define/agree on what the tight bass is but I will assume you are looking for a SLAM in a chest and gut type of feeling. That's probably bass between 50-100Hz. Your speakers are not designed to "shine" in that range.

2) I listen mostly to jazz/pop
Great, your system should work for this type of music well. I bet Diana Krall's vocal sounds great and you get very good imaging and soundstage depth. Also, I never heard Diana's recording that had a tight bass. I guess jazz drummer could hit the drums hard to showcase the tight bass but not the double bass instrument which is used regularly in jazz recordings.

3) bass is quite boomy and doesn't go as deep as it should
You don't know what bass is doing without the measurements. I assure you KEF KC62 will go plenty deep, especially if you place it in the corner.

So if you want some SLAM, I think this is the wrong speaker system. You can make it work with some additional acoustic panels and bass traps.
 

RobL

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You really need to buy or borrow a measurement mic and see what’s happening in the room. It’s possible the subwoofer phasing is causing cancellation. If you turn the sub off and play the speakers full range, how is the bass then?
 
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PrTv

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Thanks again for all your inputs! I will read through them.

To answer some of your comments, selling the speakers + sub to get the LS60 will result in a big loss for me (given how much the LS60 costs where I live). This system is not meant to be my main setup and I can't justify any further big investment, so I might try to adjust to the extent possible and I must be content with the result, however good/bad it would be.

I will put some more hours on the system (the sub has less than 100hrs now), and will play with cross-over and sub placement (as much as my room allows). Too bad, at this stage, I cannot use any form of EQ in my audio chain, but will certainly look into this if opportunity arises.
 

bo_knows

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Thanks again for all your inputs! I will read through them.

To answer some of your comments, selling the speakers + sub to get the LS60 will result in a big loss for me (given how much the LS60 costs where I live). This system is not meant to be my main setup and I can't justify any further big investment, so I might try to adjust to the extent possible and I must be content with the result, however good/bad it would be.

I will put some more hours on the system (the sub has less than 100hrs now), and will play with cross-over and sub placement (as much as my room allows). Too bad, at this stage, I cannot use any form of EQ in my audio chain, but will certainly look into this if opportunity arises.
To put things in perspective, you own a great system, especially for the type of music you listen to. I bet a lot of people would be ecstatic to own it. Count yourself lucky.
The first thing that you can try is what was already suggested, and that is to crossover sub at 80-100hz with LS50WII. Make sure that the sub is no more than 6 inches away from the front wall. Try to place it next to the right speaker on the inside and if that doesn't work, try the left side. If you can, move LS50WII two feet away from the front wall and set it up in the app as free-standing. Also, depending on your floor, it may be worth it to play with some subwoofer platform or place it higher in the air.
Good luck, relax and enjoy your system!


1653065400409.png
 

Peter Chuang

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Hi

I came across this forum searching for solutions/suggestions/tips to properly setup my speakers/sub-woofer. I found some discussions in this forum but not specifically for WII + KC62 (that discussion was for LS50 Meta).

I bought a pair of LS50 WII and KC62 a week ago, and I'm struggling to get a good result. I couldn't get good / punchy / tight bass out of this setup. Bass is boomy and the setup sounds quite flat (lack dynamic).

Below are details of my setup:
- LS50 WII on KEF's S2 Stand
- Sub is connected with the right speaker / close to the wall (also tried the left one but got the same result).
View attachment 207008

- Below is the setup - I know it looks weird, but I set it up like this to fix the wake up issue. With default setting, KC62 only wakes up with moderate/loud volume and may turn off mid-song for bass-light songs. KEF guy suggested this setup as a workaround.
View attachment 207007
1. Turn crossover of KC62 to maximum, the actual crossover can be tuned in ls50W2 app
2. Phase > 0 degree
3. EQ > room
4. volume > mid of min/max
With this setting, the sub will not use LFE signal and I have to set it up like this in KEF Connect. Basically, sending the whole band to the sub and use the sub's crossover to determine the cut-in point. Also the volume to determine the sub's output. This can resolve wake-up problem.
View attachment 207009
APP
1. one sub
2. mono
3. high pass >120hz
4. low pass > 120hz
5. sub gain > you may tune this one base on your taste of bass

Also note that the Phase is 180, as after several rounds of testing, I found that reversing the phase give me a bit deeper bass.

Then, to the setup, from the manual, it's suggested that there should be some gap when the speakers are "rolled off" and the sub will "cut in" to prevent bass bump, so I set the speakers to roll off around 65 and sub's crossover to 45.

Also note that I tried countless combinations of high-pass / sub out and various sub's EQ (e.g. Room / Wall / Corner), but couldn't get satisfactory result.

Also I tried that "sub crawl" trick (swapping sub/seat positions and crawl around / using sound analyzer app on my phone to measure low freq to find the best location), but to be honest... the freq/spectrum measured were pretty much the same across the room. This setup is in my bedroom (4*5 Sqm) with bed/cabinet/tv etc. So I ended up leaving the sub where it's most convenient to plug in and out of the way.

Lastly... in spite of the wake-up issue, I also tried using the app's default setting (selecting KC62 / selecting LFE + volume at 3PM and sub-out at 45 / high-pass at 70), but still couldn't get good bass.

I listen mostly to jazz/pop... for songs like I Don't Want To Hear It Anymore (Shelby Lynne) / My Love Is (Diana Krall) / Cry (if you want to) (Holly Cole), bass is quite boomy and doesn't go as deep as it should (I have some good headphones with proper amplification (e.g. Focal's Utopia/ZMF Verite Closed) so I know how the bass should sound like in those songs.

Any suggestion please?
 

Tangband

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Hi

I came across this forum searching for solutions/suggestions/tips to properly setup my speakers/sub-woofer. I found some discussions in this forum but not specifically for WII + KC62 (that discussion was for LS50 Meta).

I bought a pair of LS50 WII and KC62 a week ago, and I'm struggling to get a good result. I couldn't get good / punchy / tight bass out of this setup. Bass is boomy and the setup sounds quite flat (lack dynamic).

Below are details of my setup:
- LS50 WII on KEF's S2 Stand
- Sub is connected with the right speaker / close to the wall (also tried the left one but got the same result).
View attachment 207008

- Below is the setup - I know it looks weird, but I set it up like this to fix the wake up issue. With default setting, KC62 only wakes up with moderate/loud volume and may turn off mid-song for bass-light songs. KEF guy suggested this setup as a workaround.
View attachment 207007

With this setting, the sub will not use LFE signal and I have to set it up like this in KEF Connect. Basically, sending the whole band to the sub and use the sub's crossover to determine the cut-in point. Also the volume to determine the sub's output. This can resolve wake-up problem.
View attachment 207009

Also note that the Phase is 180, as after several rounds of testing, I found that reversing the phase give me a bit deeper bass.

Then, to the setup, from the manual, it's suggested that there should be some gap when the speakers are "rolled off" and the sub will "cut in" to prevent bass bump, so I set the speakers to roll off around 65 and sub's crossover to 45.

Also note that I tried countless combinations of high-pass / sub out and various sub's EQ (e.g. Room / Wall / Corner), but couldn't get satisfactory result.

Also I tried that "sub crawl" trick (swapping sub/seat positions and crawl around / using sound analyzer app on my phone to measure low freq to find the best location), but to be honest... the freq/spectrum measured were pretty much the same across the room. This setup is in my bedroom (4*5 Sqm) with bed/cabinet/tv etc. So I ended up leaving the sub where it's most convenient to plug in and out of the way.

Lastly... in spite of the wake-up issue, I also tried using the app's default setting (selecting KC62 / selecting LFE + volume at 3PM and sub-out at 45 / high-pass at 70), but still couldn't get good bass.

I listen mostly to jazz/pop... for songs like I Don't Want To Hear It Anymore (Shelby Lynne) / My Love Is (Diana Krall) / Cry (if you want to) (Holly Cole), bass is quite boomy and doesn't go as deep as it should (I have some good headphones with proper amplification (e.g. Focal's Utopia/ZMF Verite Closed) so I know how the bass should sound like in those songs.

Any suggestion please?
The main reason that people experience less good bass and integration is often wrong installing of the main speakers .
The main speakers must play good bass all by themselves , before you integrate them to a subwoofer. You have to find the right placement in the room for them .

1. Turn off your subwoofer .

2. Use the tunemethod to find the best place for the speakers in the room where your Kef WII plays bass tunes the best without subwoofer.

3. When this is done - If you have only one subwoofer , place it exactly between your Kef WII at the same speakerwall. Try 70 Hz crossover as a start . Turn on the subwoofer . Put a sock in the bass tubes for the Kef WII, making them closed boxes .

4. Find the right volume for the subwoofer to gel with the bass tunes from your Kef WII .
 
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