• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Please advise re headphone setup

ex audiophile

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
635
Likes
806
I've always preferred speakers to headphones but listening at higher volumes is not always marriage friendly so I'm looking into headphones. I've done some homework and open back, over the ear, wired phones seem to be best for SQ. My priority is of course SQ with comfort a close second. I will be in a quiet environment and prefer a rich warm sound with excellent detail and bass. I wanted to limit the cost to 1500 but it appears that the Sennheiser HD 800 S is exceptional and costs a bit more.
I can plug the phones into my Anthem STR preamp or AVM60 processor, but I would love to know if you guys think I'd hear a substantial improvement with a dedicated pre/DAC. I listen only to wireless streaming sources (Qobuz and Spotify Prem) so would the Matrix Element X be the ideal choice? It's pricey so if there alternatives that would provide similar SQ I'm all ears. arghh arghhh
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
Open back leaks noise in and music out, so may not be marriage-friendly either, depending on what you and your spouse are looking for.

Getting a dedicated headphone amp like the JDS Labs Atom and connecting it to the outs of your preamp if that's your source is very much worth the investment. A dedicated DAC is less important.
 
OP
E

ex audiophile

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
635
Likes
806
Open back leaks noise in and music out, so may not be marriage-friendly either, depending on what you and your spouse are looking for.

Getting a dedicated headphone amp like the JDS Labs Atom and connecting it to the outs of your preamp if that's your source is very much worth the investment. A dedicated DAC is less important.

thanks very much. The sound leakage would not be a problem, and I'm working on the assumption that open backs offer superior SQ to closed models. Using just an amp will save a bunch of money :)
 

Celty

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
367
Likes
308
I will be in a quiet environment and prefer a rich warm sound with excellent detail and bass. I wanted to limit the cost to 1500 but it appears that the Sennheiser HD 800 S is exceptional and costs a bit more.
The opinions on the HD800 series vary, but I have not seen anyone describe them as having "a rich warm sound" with some calling it "bright neutral", some describing it as a bit dry or sterile, nor excellent for bass.. Most agree it's strengths are the large sound stage, instrument separation, and great detail. It's excellent, but may not be the best choice for your tastes. Others can jump in, but I would suggest an audition if at all possible.

From your preferences you might look more toward something like the LCD series or ZMF models. I am wondering if the ZMF Aeolus would be up your alley, and it is in your price range - $1199.99.

ZMF Aeolus

I can plug the phones into my Anthem STR preamp or AVM60 processor, but I would love to know if you guys think I'd hear a substantial improvement with a dedicated pre/DAC. I listen only to wireless streaming sources (Qobuz and Spotify Prem) so would the Matrix Element X be the ideal choice? It's pricey so if there alternatives that would provide similar SQ I'm all ears. arghh arghhh
I'm not familiar with your electronics so others can advise you better on that.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,084
Likes
36,537
Location
The Neitherlands
Like Celty mentioned the HD800(S) is not "a rich warm sound" but can be with EQ.
If you want the HD800(S) to become rich and warm sounding your amplifier must have quite a lot of voltage swing (to allow for EQ) so must be specified to have at least 250mW into 300 Ohm.

I see no HP out on the anthem STR pre and the HP out on the AVM-60 is not specified.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
There are quite some options at that price point you are willing to go at.

Warm and rich can sometimes be describing relatively less pricey stuff like the HD650 / HD600.

But at your budget, you should perhaps give the Hifiman Arya a listen to see if you like it for what it is. I like it better than the HD800 / 800S.

And as pointed out a dedicated headphone amp will definitely do better. Something like the JDS Atom / Schiit Magni Heresy at US$99/pop are already as good as they come for headphone amps.

As for wireless sources, there's plenty of alternatives out that don't break the bank. Stuff like the DX7Pro, D50S, M500 all come with BT antennas. Or super budget friendly being the DX3Pro. The DX3Pro and DX7Pro both come with pretty decent headphone amps built-in too.
 

Hipper

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
753
Likes
625
Location
Herts., England
I have a later numbered HD800 and use a dedicated amp and DAC.

For comfort it is the best I've had. It has larger then usual ear pieces that sit over your whole ear instead of crushing them.

Sonically I love them. Bass to me is just right - it's there and loud enough but not overwhelming, and nicely balanced. I dare say for bass heads it would not be enough but I could EQ it louder. There were complaints of the earlier numbered HD800 of their treble. I've never had a problem with it but I'm 66 years old so perhaps the complaints were from those with better hearing. Overall these are the best headphones I've heard but then I haven't listened to non dynamic types or a wide range.

As mentioned above, the ideal for you would be using a dedicated headphone amp from you pre amp. If you can't afford a headphone amp at the moment, get the best headphones you can afford and get an amp later.
 

daftcombo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,688
Likes
4,070
I your price range I think about the Focal Clear.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,158
Location
Singapore
In headphones comfort is paramount, it doesn't matter how great headphones sound if you can't stand wearing them. And comfort is entirely a subjective personal preference, only you know what you find comfortable. That is why despite my love for the Etymotic ER4 SR I try and always include a disclaimer that their deep fit is not for everybody.

A second point I'd make is that price is not a proxy for quality (either of sound or build). There are some excellent modestly priced headphones out there and some pretty disappointing expensive models and price is not much of an indicator of whether or not headphones are good.

A third point is that you can either look for headphones that have a sound signature you like out of the box, or you can EQ and tune the sound signature yourself. Buying a headphone you like out of the box is a lot simpler if you find one you like, but in the longer term using EQ gives you a lot more options and versatility. Especially if you like a particular sound signature of an expensive headphone but don't want to pay $$$$$$'s a good lower cost headphone which is amenable to EQ may give you just what you want at much lower cost.

A fourth point is that there are great open and closed back headphones. Audiophile orthodoxy seems to be that open back is better but I'd not take this too seriously as there are some excellent closed back headphones (and in some cases, use of vents means it is not as simple as being open or closed). Similarly, do not assume that planar magnetic = better or that electrostatic = better, there are plenty of excellent pistonic dynamic models out there and it is about implementation, not marketing buzz words.

As to whether you need a DAC or amp, personally I don't think you need a separate DAC and find most onboard DACs are perfectly good in terms of audible performance (I accept that they may not measure particularly well compared to SOTA DACs). For amps I think it depends on how efficient and easy to drive your headphones are and what listening levels you want. If you have inefficient high impedance headphones or want to listen at ear bleeding volume (I'd recommend strongly a bit of sensibleness here if you don't want to end up with serious hearing issues) then you will need an amplifier. If you have efficient easy to drive headphones and listen at reasonable volume then you will be OK with many on-board headphone amplifiers. I think this one depends on what headphones you buy and how loud you want to go. I have a JDS Atom but also find most of my headphones can reach a sensible listening level if fed directly from my devices and that the headphone outputs of these devices are perfectly acceptable in terms of SQ. If you do buy an amp then again do not fall into the trap of thinking more expensive = better and that you have to spend spend spend. Models like the JDS Atom, the newer Schiit Magni (both of them), the Geshelli headphone amp and even the venerable O2 all provide loads of power and excellent performance at modest cost.

On headphones, it is such a personal choice, what sort of sound signature do you want? Opinions will invariably be based on our own personal preferences which may be irrelevant to you. For what it's worth I picked up some clearance offer Denon D7200's which I'd recommend 100% as beautifully built luxurious headphones with a terrific enjoyable but not neutral sound signature. If you want warmth and a bit more bass they're splendid. If you want something flat and neutral then I've yet to find anything that does accurate neutrality better than the Etymotic ER4 SR (but like I say, their fit means they are definitely not for everyone).
 
OP
E

ex audiophile

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
635
Likes
806
Quite an interesting video from Oluv:


I love it, especially the line "I'm not doing some shit here" lol. It was like Arnold was doing the review. The accent also for some reason brought Hogan's Heroes to mind, remember the German sergeant, "I know NOTHING!"?

Anyway, many thanks to you and the others for all the very helpful comments. This latter video also points out how blind testing often gets in the way of what we want to believe o_O I was very interested in the negative review of the expensive Sennheisers. He much preferred the older 650s and i believe that our leader has a pair of the 650s as well.

I don't know how to go about EQ adjusting a headphone but it appears that Spotify, at least, has that functionality built into its app.
Happy Holidays to all
 

Celty

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
367
Likes
308
Quite an interesting video from Oluv:

I like his videos, he seems like a nice guy. I don't agree with a lot of his opinions and conclusions, but hey, life would be so boring if we lived in an echo chamber that only reinforced our own thoughts and experiences.

Do I think the HE4XX's sound is equal to or better than the Focal Utopia, ZMF Auteur or Verite, or HIFIMAN's own HE1000se, etc. ? As an owner of the HE4XX, who likes them, the answer is no. Is the HE4XX a great bang for the buck headphone that beats out many other choices for value? Yes, absolutely.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
21,657
Likes
21,929
Location
Canada
Open back leaks noise in and music out, so may not be marriage-friendly either, depending on what you and your spouse are looking for.

Getting a dedicated headphone amp like the JDS Labs Atom and connecting it to the outs of your preamp if that's your source is very much worth the investment. A dedicated DAC is less important.
Yes, I can hear the smoke-alarm, timers, TV, doorbell-knock and phone great with or without my Sennheiser open backs on my head. It's good sometimes and at other times the leakage is a issue if I crank the volume way up.
 
Last edited:

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,851
Likes
9,603
Location
Europe
Quite an interesting video from Oluv:

I haven't watched the full video (made it to 7:56) but I cannot relate to anything he says so far. Listening to the examples with a HD800 the original recording sounds brightest to me, less brighter the Sennheiser, even less brighter the Hifiman, so if accuracy is the target the Sennheiser is closer to reality. I think this guy just likes a falling FR curve - no problem with that, but it's just a personal opinion.

Yesterday I auditioned a few expensive closed headphones (Sennheiser HD820, a Focal, an Audeze - sorry, don't know their model names) and as reference a HD800S (I own a HD800). I listened with my Samsung S5 Neo which has a very good sounding headphone output with enough power for my taste. The following statements are my subjective opinion (YMMV), the order is always from good to bad:
  • soundstage: HD800S, HD820, Audeze, Focal.
  • bass power: Audeze/Focal, HD820, HD800S
  • bass quality: HD800S, HD820, Audeze/Focal.
  • comfort: HD800S, HD820, Focal, Audeze. The latter two are just too heavy for me.
  • seal: Audeze/Focal, HD820. I was not happy with the HD820, the seal was not good enough to suppress surrounding noise.
  • maximum loudness: Audeze/Focal, HD820/HD800S
Regarding SQ I could live with them all. Both Audeze and Focal have a very nice and smooth sound which is maybe closer to the sound of my speakers at home than the HD800. Regarding comfort I gladly stay with my HD800 which is at the upper limit (weight, pressure) of what I can handle for long term listening. When I bought it 5 years ago I could not bear the brand new AKG K812, got kind of a headache after 10 minutes.
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,851
Likes
9,603
Location
Europe
I've always preferred speakers to headphones but listening at higher volumes is not always marriage friendly so I'm looking into headphones. I've done some homework and open back, over the ear, wired phones seem to be best for SQ. My priority is of course SQ with comfort a close second. I will be in a quiet environment and prefer a rich warm sound with excellent detail and bass. I wanted to limit the cost to 1500 but it appears that the Sennheiser HD 800 S is exceptional and costs a bit more.
I have a HD800 and although I'm very happy with its bass quality it definitely has no rich warm sound but a rather neutral (my taste and my aging ears) and detailed. The bass quality is great and the soundstage is the best I've heard yet. The older models (HD580/600) are not as open and not as detailed as the HD800.

Let me throw in the Beyer Dynamik DT990 pro and DT880 pro if you prefer a little more bass than the cheaper Sennheisers offer. I own the former and for this cheap money SQ is very good. The DT1990 is said to be very good as well although much more expensive.
I can plug the phones into my Anthem STR preamp or AVM60 processor, but I would love to know if you guys think I'd hear a substantial improvement with a dedicated pre/DAC.
Depends on the output impedance and max level, your headphone impedance curve and your max desired SPL (keep in mind that listening with headphones easily gets too loud and kills your hearing sense in the long run).
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
HD 800S indeed does not have neutral bass, it is dampened quite a bit.

Audeze LCD-X has a hair more bass and is less bright.

The HD800's bass response is highly dependent on the sound pressure levels one is listening them at. I believe the HD800S is very similar.

As you can see, at 72dB SPL and at 60 dB (72 - 12dB in chart) and at 84 dB (72 + 12dB in chart) SPL, the bass response is quite a constrast.
So, its very dependent how loud you are listening to the headphone at.


HD800 levels.jpg
 
Last edited:

MZKM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
4,251
Likes
11,557
Location
Land O’ Lakes, FL
The HD800's bass response is highly dependent on the sound pressure levels one is listening them at. I believe the HD800S is very similar.

As you can see, at 72dB SPL and at 60 dB (72 - 12dB in chart) and at 84 dB (72 + 12dB in chart) SPL, the bass response is quite a constrast.
So, its very dependent on what frequency you are listening to the headphone at.


View attachment 43950
This is true for all headphones, this is perceived loudness. The measurements I am comparing the two are done with the 20Hz-1kHz between ~65-70dB. 85dB RMS (lets say @ 1kHz) is reference levels.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
Perceived and measured are not the same thing. I can perceive the HD800 to be marginally warm too if I spend 8 hours with a Beyer or Grado on my ears before listening to the HD800.

The chart is actual measured figures.
 
Top Bottom