Perlisten speakers

[Matthew J Poes]

What defining characteristic of "actual beam forming" applies to the Perlisten speakers, but not the expanding arrays? Feel free to get as technical as you'd like.

let me get permission from Perlisten before I share more. I don’t know for sure how much.

but I’ve already shared the main issue. That beam forming requires that all the speakers overlap substantially in output over a wide bandwidth to control directivity. Expanding arrays have hard crossovers between the drivers. The central tweeter in the 3 driver array has the exact same highpass as the two “midrange” drivers above and below it. They operate over much of their bandwidth together.

as soon as Dan gives me permission to share more details I am happy to do so.

 

[BenB]

let me get permission from Perlisten before I share more. I don’t know for sure how much.

but I’ve already shared the main issue. That beam forming requires that all the speakers overlap substantially in output over a wide bandwidth to control directivity. Expanding arrays have hard crossovers between the drivers. The central tweeter in the 3 driver array has the exact same highpass as the two “midrange” drivers above and below it. They operate over much of their bandwidth together.

as soon as Dan gives me permission to share more details I am happy to do so.

The bolded part simply isn't true. Frequency-dependent pruning and thinning of arrays is standard beamforming practice.

 

[Descartes]

let me get permission from Perlisten before I share more. I don’t know for sure how much.

but I’ve already shared the main issue. That beam forming requires that all the speakers overlap substantially in output over a wide bandwidth to control directivity. Expanding arrays have hard crossovers between the drivers. The central tweeter in the 3 driver array has the exact same highpass as the two “midrange” drivers above and below it. They operate over much of their bandwidth together.

as soon as Dan gives me permission to share more details I am happy to do so.

I like the fact that their tweeter is at ear level compared to the F328Be

 

[AlexanderM]

Any price on the S4B bookshelf speakers?

 

[777]

Real photos.

 

[Kachda]

Ugh that shiny midrange/tweeter is really too much

 

[pierre]

Wow, those look really great. Same price as the Revel F328Be, and arguably as good.

Look at Revel F3228Be v.s. Perlisten s7t:

up to 3k they are very similar. If the room is live, I am guessing they will sound different.
The spin gives a score of 6.3 which is quit low and does not take into account the SPL capacity. I looked into the component of the scores and LFQ is the one which is significantly lower that for the Revel. Since the quality of the measurements in the bass is low, I will wait for a klippel measurement.

 

[richard12511]

They are not. This is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation. The speakers are designed to be equally good with stereo or multichannel. They aren’t that bass sacrificed. Not sure why you think that. They have significant output down to 22hz. In their ported mode the bass rolls off like a sealed box but with more output and excursion control down to 22hz or so. Allowing for in room extension down below 20hz. Remember that those 4 drivers are about equal to a typical 14” driver and they have a ton of excursion. I think you are making assumptions about the sacrifices in this design that simply aren’t true.

I thought that based on the the marketing language prior to release(THX Dominus etc). I’ve had my eye on these, and I was thinking they were targeting the HT space, but with more audiophile sound. After reading your review, though, it’s clear I was wrong. Even more interested now .

 

[richard12511]

Real photos.

Honestly really love the look of that gloss veneer. Only the I don’t like are the grills.

 

[ctrl]

They aren’t that bass sacrificed. Not sure why you think that. They have significant output down to 22hz. In their ported mode the bass rolls off like a sealed box but with more output and excursion control down to 22hz or so. Allowing for in room extension down below 20hz.

The frequency response drop towards low frequencies really corresponds to that of a closed speaker.
Here is a comparison of a HP with second order Butterworth @50Hz.
The match is not quite perfect, since the speaker cabinet provides too little volume for the four woofers, which is often deliberately chosen to make the low bass appear "more powerful" (SPL hump around 100Hz).

So the loudspeaker corresponds very roughly to a closed loudspeaker with an f3 of 50Hz. Where under 35Hz probably a little more sound pressure level is available because of the low BR tuning around 30Hz (if the ground plane measurement conditions were optimal and wind did not affect the measurements).


Looking closer at the ground plane measurement, an f10 at 25Hz is not exactly what I would call "significant output down to 22hz".
If the speaker is placed freely, the bass should sound rather "soft/slim/thin" - which does not have to be bad.

Source: Audioholics

Remember that those 4 drivers are about equal to a typical 14” driver and they have a ton of excursion.

If we assume that the woofers are SBAcoustics MW19TX-8, then each woofer has a displacement volume of about 103cm³.

With four woofers (Vd 400cm³), this is significantly less than a "reasonable" 10'' subwoofer can provide in displacement volume - Vd around 480-600cm³.
For such a slim and small speaker this is certainly okay, but for speakers with a pair price of $16000 the low bass performance is not special.

 

[hardisj]

If we assume that the woofers are SBAcoustics MW19TX-8

FWIW, according to Perlisten, they are not SB speakers. See my post here for context.

We also use Klippel and is a great tool for getting every ounce of performance out of our speakers. We design our speakers 100% and are not using SB Acoustics. This is an easy assumption to make with the cool Textreme Carbon Fiber cones.

 

[warthor]

One thing I am confused about is how all their speakers and subwoofers appear to have the THX Dominus certification, including the R5t, S5m, and S4s. I am truly curious about this. Does this mean they can create more clean/loud output than all other speakers before them in equivalent categories (because no other speakers earned this certification)? I say equivalent categories because the surrounds got a THX dominus surround certification. If so, that is quite remarkable.

In the review of the S7T the reviewer mentioned the S7T was the only speaker with this THX certification, only adding to my confusion.

Links for proof (scroll to the bottom for dominus certificate):
S5m Monitor — Perlisten Audio
R5t Tower — Perlisten Audio
S4s — Perlisten Audio

 

[MZKM]

One thing I am confused about is how all their speakers and subwoofers appear to have the THX Dominus certification, including the R5t, S5m, and S4s. I am truly curious about this. Does this mean they can create more clean/loud output than all other speakers before them in equivalent categories (because no other speakers earned this certification)? I say equivalent categories because the surrounds got a THX dominus surround certification. If so, that is quite remarkable.

In the review of the S7T the reviewer mentioned the S7T was the only speaker with this THX certification, only adding to my confusion.

Links for proof (scroll to the bottom for dominus certificate):
S5m Monitor — Perlisten Audio
R5t Tower — Perlisten Audio
S4s — Perlisten Audio

Yeah, that seems odd. Unless the certification has different requirements for different speaker types. What I saw is 91dB and some distortion requirement, which those speakers don’t do.

 

[warthor]

Yeah, that seems odd. Unless the certification has different requirements for different speaker types. What I saw is 91dB and some distortion requirement, which those speakers don’t do.

Something is not adding up.

To me this would be like breaking the world record in many different races (100m, 5 mile). Though the requirements are different it still is the first to break certain thresholds. Breaking the record in one category (i.e., s7t) is remarkable, but in all categories is ______________ (fill in the blank: cataclysmic, paradigm shifting).

 

[MZKM]

Something is not adding up.

To me this would be like breaking the world record in many different races (100m, 5 mile). Though the requirements are different it still is the first to break certain thresholds. Breaking the record in one category (i.e., s7t) is remarkable, but in all categories is ______________ (fill in the blank: cataclysmic, paradigm shifting).

It’s not breaking records, it’s the first to apply for the record.

Many home theater horn speakers are 91dB and low distortion, they just haven‘t paid THX to certify it.

 

[ctrl]

FWIW, according to Perlisten, they are not SB speakers. See my post here for context.

Thanks for the link. This should not change much in the result of the calculation as the drivers used by PerListen should have a similar cone area. Perhaps we will hear more about this from Matthew in the future.

 

[richard12511]

One thing I am confused about is how all their speakers and subwoofers appear to have the THX Dominus certification, including the R5t, S5m, and S4s. I am truly curious about this. Does this mean they can create more clean/loud output than all other speakers before them in equivalent categories (because no other speakers earned this certification)? I say equivalent categories because the surrounds got a THX dominus surround certification. If so, that is quite remarkable.

In the review of the S7T the reviewer mentioned the S7T was the only speaker with this THX certification, only adding to my confusion.

Links for proof (scroll to the bottom for dominus certificate):
S5m Monitor — Perlisten Audio
R5t Tower — Perlisten Audio
S4s — Perlisten Audio

I'd guess there are many other HT speakers out there with even more dynamic headroom, but they just haven't applied for THX Dominus certification(which cost money). Some of the JBL LRX83X speakers(for example) should be able to play louder than these with subwoofer support(136dB according to spec).

 

[warthor]

It’s not breaking records, it’s the first to apply for the record.

Many home theater horn speakers are 91dB and low distortion, they just haven‘t paid THX to certify it.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

The frequency response drop towards low frequencies really corresponds to that of a closed speaker.
Here is a comparison of a HP with second order Butterworth @50Hz.
The match is not quite perfect, since the speaker cabinet provides too little volume for the four woofers, which is often deliberately chosen to make the low bass appear "more powerful" (SPL hump around 100Hz).
View attachment 131534
So the loudspeaker corresponds very roughly to a closed loudspeaker with an f3 of 50Hz. Where under 35Hz probably a little more sound pressure level is available because of the low BR tuning around 30Hz (if the ground plane measurement conditions were optimal and wind did not affect the measurements).


Looking closer at the ground plane measurement, an f10 at 25Hz is not exactly what I would call "significant output down to 22hz".
If the speaker is placed freely, the bass should sound rather "soft/slim/thin" - which does not have to be bad.
View attachment 131540
Source: Audioholics



If we assume that the woofers are SBAcoustics MW19TX-8, then each woofer has a displacement volume of about 103cm³.

With four woofers (Vd 400cm³), this is significantly less than a "reasonable" 10'' subwoofer can provide in displacement volume - Vd around 480-600cm³.
For such a slim and small speaker this is certainly okay, but for speakers with a pair price of $16000 the low bass performance is not special.

I would take the ground plane measurements with a grain of salt. I (and others) have discussed this with the reviewer after puzzling over results for other speakers that didn't seem to comport with published specs or nearfield measurements. My best guess is that for whatever reason he's not picking up the full output of the port(s).

 

[thewas]

Ground plane measurements of (usually large) loudspeakers standing directly on the ground partially also capture the boundary reinforcement of the floor which other anechoic methods don't, but on the other side this is not wrong as they are anyway almost always placed like that in practice.