Perlisten speakers

[squeedle]

There's no argument. There are 2 unrelated issues at play. One is whether or not the listening axis passes through the listening position. The user can tilt the speaker to ensure that happens. The other is the perceptual localization of the soundstage. The S7T soundstage is centered with their tweeter 32" off the ground, and short of putting the speaker on a stand, nothing is going to change that.

Why is the latter issue an "issue" for you? Genuinely curious, because I never would have even considered that myself.

 

[richard12511]

There's no argument. There are 2 unrelated issues at play. One is whether or not the listening axis passes through the listening position. The user can tilt the speaker to ensure that happens. The other is the perceptual localization of the soundstage. The S7T soundstage is centered with their tweeter 32" off the ground, and short of putting the speaker on a stand, nothing is going to change that.

This is an interesting point, and one that's affected my own preferences lately. I find myself preferring the sound of tweeter/mid that's far above ear height over one that's directly at ear height. Tested by raising the same speaker up and down. Perhaps the ear height tweeter is more tonally correct, but I just prefer the more "realistic" height when it's raised up.

 

[thewas]

This is an interesting point, and one that's affected my own preferences lately. I find myself preferring the sound of tweeter/mid that's far above ear height over one that's directly at ear height. Tested by raising the same speaker up and down. Perhaps the ear height tweeter is more tonally correct, but I just prefer the more "realistic" height when it's raised up.

Yes, remember reading from Toole that usually most prefer the acoustic image source a bit above their head, possibly as its similar to the one from live music events.

In this way I never understood Dynaudio's all time flagship which I even heard once at a high end show and didn't impress me https://www.dynaudio.com/discontinued-models/consequence

 

[BenB]

Why is the latter issue an "issue" for you? Genuinely curious, because I never would have even considered that myself.

My objection isn't based on any reasoning or logical correctness of an ear-height tweeter. I just don't like the presentation of a soundstage that sits perceptibly below ear height. I could theorize about how this preference came to be, but I'm not sure it matters. The vast majority of my experience has been with speakers with tweeters close to ear height. I wouldn't have predicted a low tweeter would bother me much. In general, we don't have great acuity for localizing sounds vertically. Logically this "issue" is something that should be difficult to perceive and easy to ignore. However, this reasoning is in conflict with the reality of my perception during my audition. I wanted to love the S7T. I have been advocating for speaker companies to build something like the S7T for years, as it shares many attributes with my own DIY creations. I still think there is merit to this type of design, but I've realized that (at least for me) the tweeter height is important. With a symmetric array design, a speaker with a tweeter at ear height gets very tall, so I understand the inclination to lower it.
The last thing I want to do is create an issue where there is none. I know how powerful expectation bias can be, and I wouldn't want others to see a low tweeter and automatically assume it will bother them. On the other hand, before spending a lot of money on a tower speaker with a low tweeter, I would recommend performing a bit of testing to see whether or not you'll be satisfied with the height of the audio reproduction. It should be pretty easy for anyone with bookshelf speakers to put them on something that places the tweeter at a lower than typical height and see what they think.

 

[squeedle]

My objection isn't based on any reasoning or logical correctness of an ear-height tweeter. I just don't like the presentation of a soundstage that sits perceptibly below ear height. I could theorize about how this preference came to be, but I'm not sure it matters. The vast majority of my experience has been with speakers with tweeters close to ear height. I wouldn't have predicted a low tweeter would bother me much. In general, we don't have great acuity for localizing sounds vertically. Logically this "issue" is something that should be difficult to perceive and easy to ignore. However, this reasoning is in conflict with the reality of my perception during my audition. I wanted to love the S7T. I have been advocating for speaker companies to build something like the S7T for years, as it shares many attributes with my own DIY creations. I still think there is merit to this type of design, but I've realized that (at least for me) the tweeter height is important. With a symmetric array design, a speaker with a tweeter at ear height gets very tall, so I understand the inclination to lower it.
The last thing I want to do is create an issue where there is none. I know how powerful expectation bias can be, and I wouldn't want others to see a low tweeter and automatically assume it will bother them. On the other hand, before spending a lot of money on a tower speaker with a low tweeter, I would recommend performing a bit of testing to see whether or not you'll be satisfied with the height of the audio reproduction. It should be pretty easy for anyone with bookshelf speakers to put them on something that places the tweeter at a lower than typical height and see what they think.

Fascinating! I'd never have considered this.

 

[MattHooper]

My objection isn't based on any reasoning or logical correctness of an ear-height tweeter. I just don't like the presentation of a soundstage that sits perceptibly below ear height. I could theorize about how this preference came to be, but I'm not sure it matters.

Same here.

For me when it happens it just feels so odd. Basically a good soundstage can create something of the impression of performers in front of you.
When the soundstage is lowered significantly it can be like they are now on their knees, or even have sunk below the physical floor. It's disconcerting and tends to ruin the illusion, IMO.

 

[HammerSandwich]

It ain't right if Taj Mahal sounds 3' tall.

 

[MattHooper]

Well I was beginning to get interested in these speakers, the s5m stand mounted monitors in particular.

Until I found the Canadian price! Hooweee! Starting at $17,000, up to over $18,000 in the finish I'd prefer. For a stand mounted speaker!

Even though I've spent some nutty money before, it's even too rich for my blood at this time. This is why I typically buy second hand.

Looks like there's a massive apetite for the brand in any case. I understand most models are sold out. I'll watch these speakers from afar.

 

[squeedle]

Well I was beginning to get interested in these speakers, the s5m stand mounted monitors in particular.

Until I found the Canadian price! Hooweee! Starting at $17,000, up to over $18,000 in the finish I'd prefer. For a stand mounted speaker!

Even though I've spent some nutty money before, it's even too rich for my blood at this time. This is why I typically buy second hand.

Looks like there's a massive apetite for the brand in any case. I understand most models are sold out. I'll watch these speakers from afar.

The R series is drastically cheaper, that's the one I'm really anxious to hear. R5T in particular. But so far haven't been able to find a way to audition them.

 

[MattHooper]

The R series is drastically cheaper, that's the one I'm really anxious to hear. R5T in particular. But so far haven't been able to find a way to audition them.

I can see that.

Personally I'd need the option of something like an Ebony finish before I'd let Perlisten speakers reside in my listening/music room. Takes some of the brutalism out of the look.

 

[verdun]

Help me here guys: Kal Rubinson wrote in his Stereophile S7t review, "The dome midrange drivers have much less moving mass than a traditional midrange cone, which should result in better transient response, lower distortion, and higher efficiency."

Further he stated "The Revels offered a wider soundstage and also more midrange detail, but in extended listening I didn't miss them."

Less midrange detail than the Salon 2s - why, they promise more?

It should not be speed - is there not enough cone area in the 2 midrange domes?

 

[abdo123]

Help me here guys: Kal Rubinson wrote in his Stereophile S7t review, "The dome midrange drivers have much less moving mass than a traditional midrange cone, which should result in better transient response, lower distortion, and higher efficiency."

Further he stated "The Revels offered a wider soundstage and also more midrange detail, but in extended listening I didn't miss them."

Less midrange detail than the Salon 2s - why, they promise more?

It should not be speed - is there not enough cone area in the 2 midrange domes?

What Kal said is absolute bullshit and he should be ashamed.

 

[verdun]

OMGosh; Kal is considered reliable is he not. When did you compare the Salon 2s and the S7ts? Perhaps you could expand a little on the differences. Thanks.

 

[Dj7675]

What Kal said is absolute bullshit and he should be ashamed.

Is it too much to ask to disagree in a less insulting, derogatory manner? I think we can do better than this here.

 

[Everett T]

OMGosh; Kal is considered reliable is he not. When did you compare the Salon 2s and the S7ts? Perhaps you could expand a little on the differences. Thanks.

It's one person's subjective opinion on sound, it's not right or wrong as we all hear different. The measurements tell you the speaker is good, listening is the next step.

 

[abdo123]

it's not right or wrong as we all hear different.

what he said about drivers with lower mass having a better transient response is just wrong, it does not resemble in anyway how a driver works.

 

[Everett T]

what he said about drivers with lower mass having a better transient response is just wrong, it does not resemble in anyway how a driver works.

I wasn't commenting on that aspect of what was said just in what was heard and in theory, combined with other factors, force, it can be seen. I'm not going down that rabbit hole as I haven't seen a complete set of driver measurements...

 

[richard12511]

OMGosh; Kal is considered reliable is he not. When did you compare the Salon 2s and the S7ts? Perhaps you could expand a little on the differences. Thanks.

Just a small correction. Kal is comparing the Perlisten to his own Studio2, not the Salon2. Not that the difference is huge(though I've never heard the Studio2), but they do have different mid-range configurations, with the Salon being 4 way.

Speaking personally, Kal is probably the only stereophile reviewer I read and put actual stock in what he says(I read other stereophile reviews, but put no stock in the opinions). I'm betting, based on reviews and measurements, that those Perlisten towers would do well in blind tests(as would the Studio2).

 

[verdun]

Mea culpa you are correct, Studio 2s. I seem to recall a senior Harman exec explaining the Studio 2 being several yrs younger has a little superior tech re the Salon2.

 

[richard12511]

I can see that.

Personally I'd need the option of something like an Ebony finish before I'd let Perlisten speakers reside in my listening/music room. Takes some of the brutalism out of the look.

They actually do have an Ebony finish, both natural and high gloss Ebony.

Personally, I actually really like the aesthetic of these speakers. The fact that they perform excellently is a huge bonus.

One thing I still don't entirely understand is the dynamic capabilities. In response to people comparing the measurements of the S7t to the Revel F328Be, I remember @Matthew J Poes mentioning that one thing that doesn't show in the measurements is that the Perlisten will get 10?dB louder. How is this possible? They seem very similarly sized, and have almost equal sensitivity. Given that the Revel F328Be3 can take a ton of power(Amir put most of 1000W into it), where does that dynamic advantage come from? Obviously they have incredible dynamics, as they are the only recipients of the top Dolby rating, so I'm not doubting the capabilities, but rather just wondering where they come from.