Outlaw Model 5000 Multichannel Amplifier Review

[amirm]

Amir, can you share the mapping of the channels in your results (channels "1-4" were tested) with the labeling on the back of the amp?

Four channels were connected to loads: Left, Right, Surround Left and Surround Right. The center channel was not used.

Measurements shown were for two channels: Left and Right. Channel 1 in measurements is always the Right channel.

 

[amirm]

Also looks like there is a typo in the power vs distortion 8 ohm graph with Channel 1 being labeled as an ICEpower amp?

Yes, sorry. That was the leftover label from the test template. The measurements are for Outlaw.

 

[restorer-john]

Also looks like there is a typo in the power vs distortion 8 ohm graph with Channel 1 being labeled as an ICEpower amp?

That's 'cos it ran so cool...

 

[peng]

I'd be testing the two channels to the far right as likely the quietest. Nice juicy cap banks, 4 caps for each channel.

Iirc, Audioholics.com found that the caps were rated 50 V so or apple to apple comparison with amps/avrs that typically have ps caps rated 71 V or 80 V you have to divide the total capacitance of 4X6,800 = 27,200 uf by two to get the total effective capacitance per channel. That's because with the 50 V rating they have to series parallel them to make the specs of 120 W/Ch.

 

[NegativeEntropy]

Amir,

Thanks for the response on channels tested. Curious is the dark blue line (channel "#3") was the SR channel (2nd best results - 2nd furthest from the transformer) or the SL?

Last request: Is it possible to confirm the input sensitivity? Specifically at what voltage clipping starts?

I'm looking at the Monoprice HTP-1 Pre/Pro and it includes an option to set max output voltage (allows one to get max dynamic range out of the Pre/Pro with various amp sensitivities) - would be excellent to set this to just below the start of clipping. Pardon my ignorance, but if clipping needs a definition (for the purposes of this test) then the 1% THD+N used for the short term power tests would seem appropriate here (so one can utilize all of the available power).

I can see this number being helpful for other amps too for the same reason (not sure how common a setting this is in a Pre/Pro) and just to confirm gain structure. Not sure how consistent or at what distortion level the built in clipping indicators in amps tend to trip so figuring your gear with a known THD is a much better bet.

Thanks!

 

[doodlebro]

Amir,

Thanks for the response on channels tested. Curious is the dark blue line (channel "#3") was the SR channel (2nd best results - 2nd furthest from the transformer) or the SL?

Maybe I'm confused, but I think you're putting way too much faith in Outlaw building every amp the same way with proper "binning" techniques. Amir's tested amp will more than likely be different than yours regarding the cleanest channels. The difference in SINAD between tested channels sort of points in that direction because it implies there isn't a solid "binning" process for the amplifier paths on each model 5000. What you are asking/betting on is akin to having someone else calibrate their TV professionally and asking for their settings to copy them, thinking you will get the same result.

 

[NegativeEntropy]

Maybe I'm confused, but I think you're putting way too much faith in Outlaw building every amp the same way with proper "binning" techniques. Amir's tested amp will more than likely be different than yours regarding the cleanest channels. The difference in SINAD between tested channels sort of points in that direction because it implies there isn't a solid "binning" process for the amplifier paths on each model 5000. What you are asking/betting on is akin to having someone else calibrate their TV professionally and asking for their settings to copy them, thinking you will get the same result.

doodle,

Understood. I am looking for confirmation (or not) that the channels furthest from the transformer are the least noisy - this is what one might expect (and what was found in the audioholics review in 2015), all else being equal (and to your point, they never are).

Related, the amp under test is actually my amp, so even results that are not reliably "generalizable" can still have value for me, but that's not my intent in asking here

 

[amirm]

Amir,

Thanks for the response on channels tested. Curious is the dark blue line (channel "#3") was the SR channel (2nd best results - 2nd furthest from the transformer) or the SL?

Sorry for the late reply. Am busy with a project with not much time to spend on the forum.

My analyzer has only two channels and is always measuring Left and Right channels as marked. When testing four channels, I just put a load on the other two (SR, SL) but don't measure them. So in this graph:

The second set of lines are still left and right channels as impacted by the SR and SL channels being driven. Power is naturally removed from Left and Right channels when the other two invisible channels are also driven.

So to answer your question, NO, I have not shown the response of SL and SR. The unit is packed and weighs so much that I cannot measure it anymore.

 

[NegativeEntropy]

Sorry for the late reply. Am busy with a project with not much time to spend on the forum.

My analyzer has only two channels and is always measuring Left and Right channels as marked. When testing four channels, I just put a load on the other two (SR, SL) but don't measure them. So in this graph:

The second set of lines are still left and right channels as impacted by the SR and SL channels being driven. Power is naturally removed from Left and Right channels when the other two invisible channels are also driven.

So to answer your question, NO, I have not shown the response of SL and SR. The unit is packed and weighs so much that I cannot measure it anymore.

Oh! That makes sense. Thank you for explaining it! The lines nearly overlapping now makes more sense to me too - they are after all the same channels under test. Understood about not wanting to handle this beast again. Thanks again for all of the testing you have done.

 

[doodlebro]

Amir, what did you do with grounding to help mains hum on this amplifier? My Emotiva A-5175 came in and seems to have the same issue, though not unbearable by any means. I live in an apartment so definitely less than optimal.

 

[Vanderrg]

Hello I wonder if anyone has any quick advice or me:

Having spent time with the amp, do you think it generates enough ambient heat that I should avoid placing the pre/pro directly on top of it? I just ordered a 976 and the model 5000 after I lost some components in a lightning strike, but haven't received them in the mail yet. Previously I had an AV Receiver. Should the model 5000 have its own shelf? I hope not because shelf-space wise it would be better if I could sit the 976 right on top of it...is that a bad idea?

thanks in advance for any thoughts-
BV

 

[Neddy]

I have the very similar OSD 5ch amp, and while I have not yet put the temp probe on it, it does generate enough heat - esp when used 'in anger' - that I'd at the very least put additional riser feet between it and the AVR - as many inches as you can get.
Mine has a bit less than 2" above it in the rack (actually a slot-ventilated rack shelf, with a large hole above it for airflow up and through the fans), and even with temperature controlled fan cooling to the rack, I can feel heat coming out the top/front of it when pushed hard.
My past experience with (older) AVRs is that they can generate a lot of heat on their own, which might help encourage airflow up, but also add to the total heat to be gotten rid of.
Otherwise, my amp has been stable and works quite nicely for surrounds.
Good luck!

 

[RichB]

Hello I wonder if anyone has any quick advice or me:

Having spent time with the amp, do you think it generates enough ambient heat that I should avoid placing the pre/pro directly on top of it? I just ordered a 976 and the model 5000 after I lost some components in a lightning strike, but haven't received them in the mail yet. Previously I had an AV Receiver. Should the model 5000 have its own shelf? I hope not because shelf-space wise it would be better if I could sit the 976 right on top of it...is that a bad idea?

thanks in advance for any thoughts-
BV

If it feels top component feel hot then I would find a way to cool them or use up a shelf.
You can buy a infrared thermometer and measure both components steady state.
Then, leave the amp off and measure the 976 alone and see how it hot it gets leaving it on for a few hours.

- Rich

 

[Vanderrg]

Thanks for the advice Neddy and RichB!

Now if only this thing would come in the mail!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I guess all of these new Outlaw amps are sourced in China now, vice ATI??

Dave.

The cheaper amps are made in China and the top two amps are made by ATI. The ATI alps have Chinese made sub assemblies on some parts but are all final assembly in the USA.

you can’t make a 5 channel amp in America for <$1000 these days. Nobody I am aware of is doing that.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I’ve been trying to convince Peter to have Outlaw audio build a class D amp. They aren’t sold yet. We shall see. Bruno Putzy has told Me before that his Purifi amps can be made very cheaply in quantity so I’ve been talking to all my contacts to try to get someone to produce at scale something using them. Right now it’s just NAD. There are others I can’t talk about but nothing will be low priced and mass produced sadly.

 

[iLoveCats]

I’ve been trying to convince Peter to have Outlaw audio build a class D amp.

A huge THANK YOU!

 

[Astrozombie]

With how affordable this is, I was already assuming it was Class D

 

[DriftWood]

I’ve been trying to convince Peter to have Outlaw audio build a class D amp. They aren’t sold yet. We shall see. Bruno Putzy has told Me before that his Purifi amps can be made very cheaply in quantity so I’ve been talking to all my contacts to try to get someone to produce at scale something using them. Right now it’s just NAD. There are others I can’t talk about but nothing will be low priced and mass produced sadly.

I really hope some big player in the U.S. could produce Hypex/Purifi based amps for the mass market. Kudos to you!

 

[Vasr]

I’ve been trying to convince Peter to have Outlaw audio build a class D amp. They aren’t sold yet. We shall see. Bruno Putzy has told Me before that his Purifi amps can be made very cheaply in quantity so I’ve been talking to all my contacts to try to get someone to produce at scale something using them. Right now it’s just NAD. There are others I can’t talk about but nothing will be low priced and mass produced sadly.

Doesn't look like Outlaw is designing anything on their own anymore. Either ATI rebadged for high end or working with East Asian companies that have already developed a full (or close to full) product and curating them for performance, quality control, chip selection, certification, etc and putting their label on it. Like their Outlaw 5000/7000 and 976, etc. This is how they are able to bring these units at lower price points into the US. Helped by currency arbitrage between the east and west with no other middlemen involved. The BoM costs for these traditional amp designs are very low and no third party licenses are involved. Outlaw also minimizes third party licensing costs for their pre/pro - so no third party room eq system, etc.

I don't really know the business model for Hypex. Does Hypex license out its designs for production by others or do they have to supply the boards themselves? If the latter, then I don't see how this would make it economically viable for Outlaw (or any US entity) for budget-priced systems. Too many layers for decent margins to all.

If Hypex can license its technology for US companies without requiring the margins on their own board production, may be the brands can get these boards built and assembled in Asia and sell them here in a viable business model. The licensing costs to Hypex would likely still make them a bit more expensive than traditional designs but perhaps not in the NAD or D Sonic range. But the tricky part is who in this ecosystem is going to take the market risk for making the sale numbers scale enough to bring costs down? It is a very fragmented market. For multi-channel there are far too many mass-market AVR options at lower price points. Outlaw does not have the marketing budget to make scale happen.

Are there any other companies with proven high-performing Class D designs of their own that license the technology rather than sell boards?