Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[ban25]

Hi! Greetings from Spain!

Im considering this RZ50 or the RZ70 or the Arcam AV40 for 2K€

I have currently a NAD758 (worst avr reviewed here I think lol).

I have a rotel 1095 for the mains, so powersupply wont be a problem.

Taking that in consideration, which one would be better guys?

Saw the arcam av40 review and was a dissapointment.

The rz50 was bad only at powersupply at 4ohm right?

The rz70 hasnt been reviewed yet.

Regards!

RZ70 has a new design with a well-regarded DAC, so I would expect at least as good pre-out performance as Amir measured on the RZ50 and better amp performance.

 

[dlaloum]

Hi! Greetings from Spain!

Im considering this RZ50 or the RZ70 or the Arcam AV40 for 2K€

I have currently a NAD758 (worst avr reviewed here I think lol).

I have a rotel 1095 for the mains, so powersupply wont be a problem.

Taking that in consideration, which one would be better guys?

Saw the arcam av40 review and was a dissapointment.

The rz50 was bad only at powersupply at 4ohm right?

The rz70 hasnt been reviewed yet.

Regards!

If you want to be able to try Dirac DLBC and/Or Dirac-ART, the RZ70 is the one that is most likely to get the relevant upgrades, I doubt the RZ50 will. (and there has been no word on ART from Arcam/JBL)

The other thing to look at is how many channels you need and whether you need multisub... RZ50 is single sub, RZ70 is dual sub

My needs are 5.1.4, so I stepped down from the RZ50 to the Integra DRX 3.4 (same as the NR7100, but with full pre-outs) - running with my external power amps for L-C-R, and using the internal amps for the rest.

Once Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer release their ART support, I will be looking at upgrading to something like the RZ70.

The 3.4 I use, sounded very middling on my difficult speakers, due to (I assume) power supply limitations as the speakers drop to 1.6 ohm - when run with external amps it sounds fantastic. The RZ70 probably would handle my speakers just fine, and allow me to simplify my setup...

 

[dlaloum]

Areed 100%. It depends more on the user's speaker specs, seating diatance and listening habits such as required spl from the mmp, and much less on the so called high current claims that means little unless defined. Some will say it means the amp can double down, but that's just another not very useful claim.

All I can tell you (without access to lab gear) is that the Integra 3.4 sounded muddled/confused driving my Gallo speakers (drop to 3ohm at sub XOver, and 1.6 ohm on the tweeter) - putting some beefy power amps on there resolved the issue immediately.

The speakers were being driven lightly (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W... so there should have been no power or current constraint, in theory...

But in practice - the smaller power supply AVR's tend to get distinctly "unhappy" with difficult speakers.

The more "beefy" AVR's of the bast (Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR70.4) did not suffer from this problem, and I expect that the RZ70 would probably handle them fine too... all the AVR's that did well were very heavy beasts, circa 50lb... with a lot of that weight in the massive transformers and caps - from the internal photo's, the RZ70 seems similarly engineered, and its weight is in the right ballpark...

 

[peng]

All I can tell you (without access to lab gear) is that the Integra 3.4 sounded muddled/confused driving my Gallo speakers (drop to 3ohm at sub XOver, and 1.6 ohm on the tweeter) - putting some beefy power amps on there resolved the issue immediately.

The speakers were being driven lightly (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W... so there should have been no power or current constraint, in theory...

But in practice - the smaller power supply AVR's tend to get distinctly "unhappy" with difficult speakers.

The more "beefy" AVR's of the bast (Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR70.4) did not suffer from this problem, and I expect that the RZ70 would probably handle them fine too... all the AVR's that did well were very heavy beasts, circa 50lb... with a lot of that weight in the massive transformers and caps - from the internal photo's, the RZ70 seems similarly engineered, and its weight is in the right ballpark...

We have enough such exchanges on this topic, and I thought by now we will just agree to disagree and ignore each other's comments (only on this topic, otherwise we agreed a lot in the past). As you know I am number person, don't really care about subjective comments, opinions (including yours) unless you can back it up with theory/math.

Since you cited numbers this time again, your "The speakers were being driven lightly (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W... so there should have been no power or current constraint, in theory...", I am going to repeat things I said before, such as:

If theory indicates one thing, and in real use another, then you might have applied the theory incorrectly, or your calculations went wrong. I have explained what might have been the causes of your similar and seemingly inexplicable findings in the past so I won't be surprise the causes of this one will be of the same sort as the ones we covered before.

Hints: (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W. That's not enough info, e.g. 4W avg? how many channels driven, what's the speaker's impedance characteristics, remember I explained in detail that in some cases you can't go by manufacturer's spec such as 4, 6,8 ohms nominal with dips to 2.5 ohm, or 3 ohm etc., you have to see the curve. Phase angle curve may also be needed, as on this of all people, you know very well..

The more "beefy" AVR's of the bast (Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR70.4) did not suffer from this problem, and I expect that the RZ70 would probably handle them fine too...

Again, we covered this before, the SR876 is one of the most powerful AVRs ever made regardless of price, and even though 2X the output only results in 3 dB more SPL, in marginal cases such as certain so called hard to drive speakers, one can detect a difference in some conditions of use, between the current crops of mid-range AVRs and the Onkyo. It is also of a relative old design, vs today's that are obviously based on the much more up to date technology, so choosing such a unit to compare with the latest models won't win you any theory vs real world use arguments and would invariably confuse the issue and/or cause confusions.

all the AVR's that did well were very heavy beasts, circa 50lb... with a lot of that weight in the massive transformers and caps - from the internal photo's, the RZ70 seems similarly engineered, and its weight is in the right ballpark...

Another old and tired discussions, you can only use weight as a reliable indicator of power supply strength if you compare those of similar designs, and/or vintage. Some manufacturers used off the shelf parts whereas others such as the current D+M mid-range units used their own customized transformer and PS caps so in those cases, you can't assume the weight is such a good indicator.

 

[dlaloum]

We have enough such exchanges on this topic, and I thought by now we will just agree to disagree and ignore each other's comments (only on this topic, otherwise we agreed a lot in the past). As you know I am number person, don't really care about subjective comments, opinions (including yours) unless you can back it up with theory/math.

Since you cited numbers this time again, your "The speakers were being driven lightly (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W... so there should have been no power or current constraint, in theory...", I am going to repeat things I said before, such as:

If theory indicates one thing, and in real use another, then you might have applied the theory incorrectly, or your calculations went wrong. I have explained what might have been the causes of your similar and seemingly inexplicable findings in the past so I won't be surprise the causes of this one will be of the same sort as the ones we covered before.

Hints: (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W. That's not enough info, e.g. 4W avg? how many channels driven, what's the speaker's impedance characteristics, remember I explained in detail that in some cases you can't go by manufacturer's spec such as 4, 6,8 ohms nominal with dips to 2.5 ohm, or 3 ohm etc., you have to see the curve. Phase angle curve may also be needed, as on this of all people, you know very well..



Again, we covered this before, the SR876 is one of the most powerful AVRs ever made regardless of price, and even though 2X the output only results in 3 dB more SPL, in marginal cases such as certain so called hard to drive speakers, one can detect a difference in some conditions of use, between the current crops of mid-range AVRs and the Onkyo. It is also of a relative old design, vs today's that are obviously based on the much more up to date technology, so choosing such a unit to compare with the latest models won't win you any theory vs real world use arguments and would invariably confuse the issue and/or cause confusions.



Another old and tired discussions, you can only use weight as a reliable indicator of power supply strength if you compare those of similar designs, and/or vintage. Some manufacturers used off the shelf parts whereas others such as the current D+M mid-range units used their own customized transformer and PS caps so in those cases, you can't assume the weight is such a good indicator.

Short answer - yes, I too would like to see the RZ70 and its siblings put on a proper test bench, and tested preferably with 2ohm or even 1 ohm loads

 

[ban25]

Short answer - yes, I too would like to see the RZ70 and its siblings put on a proper test bench, and tested preferably with 2ohm or even 1 ohm loads

1R is pretty dubious. Many use-cases would already consider 4R to be a short.

 

[dlaloum]

We have enough such exchanges on this topic, and I thought by now we will just agree to disagree and ignore each other's comments (only on this topic, otherwise we agreed a lot in the past). As you know I am number person, don't really care about subjective comments, opinions (including yours) unless you can back it up with theory/math.

Since you cited numbers this time again, your "The speakers were being driven lightly (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W... so there should have been no power or current constraint, in theory...", I am going to repeat things I said before, such as:

If theory indicates one thing, and in real use another, then you might have applied the theory incorrectly, or your calculations went wrong. I have explained what might have been the causes of your similar and seemingly inexplicable findings in the past so I won't be surprise the causes of this one will be of the same sort as the ones we covered before.

Hints: (72db at MLP, 86db/wm speakers, at 2.2m) requiring circa 4W average, and on peaks probably no more than 16W. That's not enough info, e.g. 4W avg? how many channels driven, what's the speaker's impedance characteristics, remember I explained in detail that in some cases you can't go by manufacturer's spec such as 4, 6,8 ohms nominal with dips to 2.5 ohm, or 3 ohm etc., you have to see the curve. Phase angle curve may also be needed, as on this of all people, you know very well..



Again, we covered this before, the SR876 is one of the most powerful AVRs ever made regardless of price, and even though 2X the output only results in 3 dB more SPL, in marginal cases such as certain so called hard to drive speakers, one can detect a difference in some conditions of use, between the current crops of mid-range AVRs and the Onkyo. It is also of a relative old design, vs today's that are obviously based on the much more up to date technology, so choosing such a unit to compare with the latest models won't win you any theory vs real world use arguments and would invariably confuse the issue and/or cause confusions.



Another old and tired discussions, you can only use weight as a reliable indicator of power supply strength if you compare those of similar designs, and/or vintage. Some manufacturers used off the shelf parts whereas others such as the current D+M mid-range units used their own customized transformer and PS caps so in those cases, you can't assume the weight is such a good indicator.

PPS:

The German magasine Audio & Vision has apparently tested the LX805 sibling - unfortunately not accessible without a subscription by some of the results were posted here on ASR...

Exciting news from Onkyo and Pioneer: TX-RZ70/ VSX-LX705, TX-RZ9/VSX-LX905 = Auro 3D + DLBC!

Come October ART is available for any manufacturer that wants to integrate it... so I am hoping that we will hear some announcements soon. CEDIA is coming up beginning of October, is it reasonable to expect PAC/Dirac to announce something before Storm's exclusivity runs out? Although these...

audiosciencereview.com

2 channels:
193 Watt / 6 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus
267 Watt / 4 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus

5 channels:
161 Watt / 6 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus
189 Watt / 4 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus

7 channels:
134 Watt / 6 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus

With 2 channels driven, it appears to double its rating at 8ohm - this is typically a good indication of current capabilities, and how it handles lower impedances - still these do still leave us guessing as to response at 2ohm.
But what little information we do have, seems to be trending in the right direction.

 

[peng]

With 2 channels driven, it appears to double its rating at 8ohm - this is typically a good indication of current capabilities, and how it handles lower impedances - still these do still leave us guessing as to response at 2ohm.

That's might be total BS, please don't fall for that too easily without seeing more collaborating/supporting facts and data! I have not seen evidence to support such a claim. Good thing you did add the word "appears", otherwise, no offense, you could have helped contribute to more untrue, or at least misleading internet hearsay. Very few expensive power amps can truly double down output into 4 ohms, let alone AVRs, unless on pick and choose the different test conditions, or the readers misinterpreted the results so the set of numbers were not apples to apples comparisons. That happens all the time because there are more readers who don't have enough knowledge to interpret such results properly for apples to apples comparison purposes, than those who do.

Next time when you compared such results take a good look at the test conditions, and do NOT compare bench test measurements using 1 kHz sweep (that's very short duration) outputs at 1% THD to the output specified by the manufacturer that is based on 20-20000 Hz at much lower THD such as 0.05% THD and are full longer duration such as the following from FTC rule Pt 432.3:

Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input.

Do you believe audiovision.de's numbers were based on the above test conditions? I would say that could be the case in dreams only. I know you are an Onkyo fan, me too even though I have not owned one yet, but as ASR members we naturally should trust, and even defends science lol..

But what little information we do have, seems to be trending in the right direction.

True, but it is mainly because people couldn't interpret the information, such as specs and measurements properly based on such "little information" and often enough, people's limited technical knowledge. The internet is full or such untrue, half true information, sad, but is the reality.

Edit: For clarity about my point, I guess I should add an example (just one example) of how one might have gotten the wrong impression of their favorite amp's output could almost "double down" by comparing manufacturer's specs to measured results. The two are, unfortunately based on different test conditions as shown below:

Pioneer LX-805:

POWER OUTPUT 150W x 11 (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-ch driven, FTC)

As measured by Audiovision.de, according to your quoted number:

267 Watt / 4 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus

One may say okay, 267/150 = 1.78, that's almost 2, so it nearly double down!!

Now if one looks at the devil in the details, the specified 150 W was based on full audio bandwidth and at 0.08%, and is based on FTC rule, whereas the 267 W measured by Audiovision.de was based on 1 kHz (most likely a quick sweep that only last seconds..) and was at 1% THD, that means it would have well passed the knee point, and that means it was well into clipping.

I asked Amir not long ato about his sweep test's duration, see post#149:

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review

Wow! Really great performance and value. Want one but to lazy to pull the 90lb Rotel out of the rack.:(

www.audiosciencereview.com

So no, that's not really a real double down scenario, not even close.

 

[DrStranger]

Can anyone help me here, when I look at back pictures of the NR7100 I see one version with 2 x front pre outs and one version with out, does anyone know why?

Onkyo TXNR7100 Black

Dolby Atmos and DTS:X AV Receiver

www.richersounds.ie

Onkyo TX-NR7100 Hands-On Review

When my receiver died unexpectedly, I had no choice but to pick up an Onkyo TX-NR7100. Here is my unbiased review.

avgadgets.com

 

[dlaloum]

Can anyone help me here, when I look at back pictures of the NR7100 I see one version with 2 x front pre outs and one version with out, does anyone know why?

Onkyo TXNR7100 Black

Dolby Atmos and DTS:X AV Receiver

www.richersounds.ie

Onkyo TX-NR7100 Hands-On Review

When my receiver died unexpectedly, I had no choice but to pick up an Onkyo TX-NR7100. Here is my unbiased review.

avgadgets.com

European vs North American versions (or 230V vs 110V)...

 

[YaskataSt]

Any owners of RZ50 that can share thoughts of the AVR as of late 2023? I've been wondering what AVR to get in this price range, but seems like there isn't right option if reading forums/reviews.

 

[SorenTyson]

Any owners of RZ50 that can share thoughts of the AVR as of late 2023? I've been wondering what AVR to get in this price range, but seems like there isn't right option if reading forums/reviews.

If you have specific questions I am happy to answer, otherwise what to add towards Amir’s post? Anecdotal comment, I never noticed the power limit he discovered

 

[dlaloum]

Any owners of RZ50 that can share thoughts of the AVR as of late 2023? I've been wondering what AVR to get in this price range, but seems like there isn't right option if reading forums/reviews.

Still remains one of the best value combinations on the market.

Of course, it depends on what you want and what you value... but the features per $ on this is pretty damn good.

As long as you are ok with a single sub - this is a fabulous pre-pro
Amps are more than ample for 8ohm speakers, but may get into trouble with difficult low impedance speaker loads (4ohm speakers with dips at crossover points that might go below 2ohm) - in those cases an external power amp is recommended.

If you don't need all the channels - if 5.1.4 is enough for you, you might be able to drop down to baby brother Integra DRX3.4... which has all the same features, drops 1 channel, and has slightly less power... pricing varies by geography/retailer/discounting - in my case the 3.4 was significantly cheaper than the RZ50 at the time... (now the RZ50 is cheaper than the 3.4 in my area.... so it pays to shop around!)

 

[tbob22]

Has anyone noticed the tone controls increasing the noise floor by 10db or more? With the tone controls at zero I don't hear noise until 0 to -5db, but with anything adjusted it's noticeable at -15 to -20db on my NR7100.

 

[YaskataSt]

Still remains one of the best value combinations on the market.

Of course, it depends on what you want and what you value... but the features per $ on this is pretty damn good.

As long as you are ok with a single sub - this is a fabulous pre-pro
Amps are more than ample for 8ohm speakers, but may get into trouble with difficult low impedance speaker loads (4ohm speakers with dips at crossover points that might go below 2ohm) - in those cases an external power amp is recommended.

If you don't need all the channels - if 5.1.4 is enough for you, you might be able to drop down to baby brother Integra DRX3.4... which has all the same features, drops 1 channel, and has slightly less power... pricing varies by geography/retailer/discounting - in my case the 3.4 was significantly cheaper than the RZ50 at the time... (now the RZ50 is cheaper than the 3.4 in my area.... so it pays to shop around!)

I actually have R3 Metas, which are 4 ohm speakers. Though I live in an apartment and I won't listen very loud. Also, I will start with only the fronts and will add the rest of the speakers over time, so I might as well add an external amp if needed.

 

[YaskataSt]

If you have specific questions I am happy to answer, otherwise what to add towards Amir’s post? Anecdotal comment, I never noticed the power limit he discovered

Does the RZ50 have the option to work as preamplifier processor, if all channels are connected to an external amp? Thanks!

 

[SorenTyson]

Does the RZ50 have the option to work as preamplifier processor, if all channels are connected to an external amp? Thanks!

Yes

 

[popej]

Very few expensive power amps can truly double down output into 4 ohms,

Basically it would means, that power supply is stabilized. Quite easy to achieve with SMPS, but then the amplifier wouldn't weight enough to satisfy an audiophile

 

[peng]

Basically it would means, that power supply is stabilized. Quite easy to achieve with SMPS, but then the amplifier wouldn't weight enough to satisfy an audiophile

Agreed, but I would add that it is just one consideration/factor, and in many cases it may be the only factor especially among relatively low output devices. Otherwise there are also factors such as the output devices used, heatsink design, among others. If all are good enough to achieve "double down", then in theory the amp should be able to achieve almost 2X the output into 4 ohms, and potentially 4X into 2 ohms, but it will be "almost", never exactly, and never more, because there will always be voltage drop, unless the anticipated voltage drop is compensated for using various designs, hence very few amps actually truly double down and if you look deeper you might suspect that they specified the 8 ohm output to make them look like they double down to 4 ohms.

 

[cbracer]

In the review on pg1, the SINAD measurements are the pre-amp outputs correct? And the AVR SINAD at 5W is the measuremet of the amp outputs correct?

With the SINAD being in the 70's for the RZ50 amp outputs, is everyone running external amps for all 5,7 or 9 of their speakers? I understand the impact of Dirac is worth so much for sound that everyone is overlooking the SINAD when they use the RZ50 amp outputs. Perhaps our interest in SINAD really doesn't matter, or at least for movies? Those using the RZ50 just for stereo 2.1 sound I can see using pre-amp outputs, but how many people are using all pre-amp outputs for 5,7,9 speaker setups? Likely no one?

If I only had $650 to spend, and both were at that price, would you choose an Onkyo NR7100 or Denon X3600 ? I suppose everyone would choose the NR7100 for Dirac versus the X3600 with better SINAD. Rating an AVR based on pre-amp outputs kinda defeats the purpose of having an amp in the same box....