Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[peng]

Omg. Please stop gaslighting me. It's pretty straightforward to tell when the bass is rattling the upstairs with one AVR and it's not with the othe at the same measured spl. Are you suggesting somehow that my family and I a sharing a delusion together?

To me it is the reason for such difference in the bass response that interests me . May be Anthem's default target curve would keep whatever room gains you have intact (a smart way imo if they did..), or would smooth it somewhat without removing much of the bumps from room gain?

The NAD might have flattened it like Audyssey would, or it may put a slight tilt towards 20 Hz but still remove the major bumps. I don't really know, may be that's why hmt would like to see some measurements, that I further assume he meant something like REW FR plots, not just spl.

 

[BlackTalon]

Omg. Please stop gaslighting me. It's pretty straightforward to tell when the bass is rattling the upstairs with one AVR and it's not with the othe at the same measured spl. Are you suggesting somehow that my family and I a sharing a delusion together? I can measure SPL. You can also choose to ignore me.

so it appears they have different frequency responses when paired with your speakers. Which is truer of the two?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

For Dirac Live, going by memory the PC beta version might have been limited to 96 kHz but I think the latest version can do 192 kHz. For the non PC versions, such as those running on Onkyo, NAD etc., I am not sure if some of them would get limited to 48 kHz or 96 kHz, may be @Kal Rubinson or @Flak can help clarity this.

AFAIK, some of the NAD models will handle 24/96 and the PC version does up to 192kHz.

 

[Beershaun]

so it appears they have different frequency responses when paired with your speakers. Which is truer if the two?

My hypothesis is the class AB amps for 5 channels in the Anthem have a more linear frequency response and linear power curve than the NAD. If you look at Amir's review of the NAD T778 you can see the particular Hypex class D amp modules they use are not flat in terms of power vs frequency and distortion rises pretty early with those modules. So I think there is actually more power being delivered at lower frequency. Id also like to get the pre amp section measured on the NAD because it does a better job of auto triggering my subwoofers at lower volume levels.

 

[RndmLstner]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but do the various amp problems impact the RZ50's functionality as a pre-pro? For example, does the amp limiter kicking in impact the voltage out of the pre-outs?

Note that unlike some of the Denons, the RZ50's amps cannot be disabled even if you only want to use the pre outs.

I have an unopened RZ50 unit that I bought to use solely as a pre-pro and predominantly b/c of DIRAC (long considered PC Dirac to Okto8 but since that rules out Atmos I held off). The RZ50 measures acceptable for pre-pro use for home theater decoded REQ purposes. Even for 2-channel the RZ50 is acceptable (& one can split 2 channel audio outside the pre-pro chain relatively easy if one prefers SOTA 2-channel and which I intend to do).

However, if the amp issues impact the pre-pro operation, then the unit is a fail.

Thanks in advance.

 

[JanesJr1]

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Amir. This one is well regarded.

Banchmark is certainly a good brand, but does that brand mean that their cables sound better? I just bought two similar cables with same circuit for a third of the price from Monoprice, and they look well made and sound just fine: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VLW398?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

 

[chris719]

AFAIK, some of the NAD models will handle 24/96 and the PC version does up to 192kHz.

They might “handle” 96 but you’d have to measure the analog output as Amir did to confirm it remains there throughout the entire signal processing path.

I’m sure the PC does though.

 

[TallDan]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but do the various amp problems impact the RZ50's functionality as a pre-pro? For example, does the amp limiter kicking in impact the voltage out of the pre-outs?

Note that unlike some of the Denons, the RZ50's amps cannot be disabled even if you only want to use the pre outs.

I have an unopened RZ50 unit that I bought to use solely as a pre-pro and predominantly b/c of DIRAC (long considered PC Dirac to Okto8 but since that rules out Atmos I held off). The RZ50 measures acceptable for pre-pro use for home theater decoded REQ purposes. Even for 2-channel the RZ50 is acceptable (& one can split 2 channel audio outside the pre-pro chain relatively easy if one prefers SOTA 2-channel and which I intend to do).

However, if the amp issues impact the pre-pro operation, then the unit is a fail.

Thanks in advance.

This is the only way i see a postman panther for this one. Rereading the results, if i stop reading before the amplifier section, things don't look bad. At current list prices, $200 less than the avr-x3700h (which would seem like the primary competition). Pre/pro SINAD is very close here and the denon's review was with the older DAC, which isn't available anymore. $1400 for a 11.1 pre-pro with DIRAC and 8k on more than one input. From that perspective, it seems solid to me.

I'm hoping some others will comment on this aspect though, I could be interpreting things wrong.

EDIT: side note, right when you posed this question, i was flipping between the x3700h review and this one, making those comparisons, thinking that might be the silver lining. It still pains me to compare to the x3700h and consider that I may be better served with it and it's internal amplifiers.

 

[DrZingo]

BTW, there is a "free" way from them to do this. When someone plays just two channel audio, up the sample rate. There is a ton of computing power here spread to 9+ channels. Lower that to two channels and sample rate can be much higher. Indeed, I have advocated that these companies have a proper, 2-channel mode which gets rid of a ton of assumptions they make about the format. SNR, SINAD, etc. can all be improved substantially in this mode.

Hmm. Would it be possible to include a bi-amp (and even tri-amp) mode in this kind of multi-channel device? That is, use four (or six) channels to drive the separate elements in stereo speakers?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

They might “handle” 96 but you’d have to measure the analog output as Amir did to confirm it remains there throughout the entire signal processing path.

Did he? Which one? Did it?

 

[symphara]

This is the only way i see a postman panther for this one. Rereading the results, if i stop reading before the amplifier section, things don't look bad. At current list prices, $200 less than the avr-x3700h (which would seem like the primary competition). Pre/pro SINAD is very close here and the denon's review was with the older DAC, which isn't available anymore. $1400 for a 11.1 pre-pro with DIRAC and 8k on more than one input. From that perspective, it seems solid to me.

I'm hoping some others will comment on this aspect though, I could be interpreting things wrong.

The 3700 has good amps, so you're not comparing like with like.

If you can get the RZ50 for $1400 it's not a bad deal just as a pre pro, but can you?

 

[RndmLstner]

What is more important ist that the Onkyo only uses a 12 db oct slope for the bass management of the mains. That will cause problems when using portet speakers or any speaker that has an in room response digging deeper than the crossover. Then the crossover slopes will be asymetric. That would be some audible flaw not the imo pointless discussion of sample rates.

Can you explain the practical consequence of this? I have Salon2s (which go well below traditional crossover points of 60 or 80) and an unopened RZ50.

Also, is this something DIRAC would EQ for?

A response indicated at least 2 pre pros allow choosing a steeper slope (eg. 24db) which suggests this is a common issue not properly addressed by most AVR or pre-pros. Are there other AVRs that simply handle the management in a different way?

If this is too tangential, a PM would be welcome. Although I acquired my 1st "audiophile grade" system 26 years ago, and have had various pre-pros, I've never concerned myself with various bass issues b/c I didn't have subwoofers (living in apartments or duplexes). I now own a house and have been contemplating adding subwoofers so your content really piqued my curiosity. While the RZ50 seems to be a good fit for what I prefer to spend, if it's limitations will create future headaches, maybe I go back to the drawing board. E.g , the HTP-1 was identified as having adjustable slope. And although I didn't intend to spend $4000 on a pre pro at this point given that they all seen to be lacking in 1 area or the other (let's be frank...none of them, even the Trinnov, are SOTA for 2 channel), perhaps that's the better choice at this point. I'm not a frequent upgrader (the RZ50 is replacing a nearly decade old Integra 80.2).

Thanks.

 

[Golfx]

Banchmark is certainly a good brand, but does that brand mean that their cables sound better? I just bought two similar cables with same circuit for a third of the price from Monoprice, and they look well made and sound just fine: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VLW398?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Recommending “any” cable is fraught with testing the waters of other members who have their own preferences. Mine are from safety of recommending one to Amir from reading other posters collected recommendations.

The design of a cable certainly matters as does the ability to consistently replicate that design for sale. If cost competition drives the price down I wonder about consistent quality.

 

[chris719]

Did he? Which one? Did it?

The Onkyo, this review. It did not.

 

[TallDan]

The 3700 has good amps, so you're not comparing like with like.

If you can get the RZ50 for $1400 it's not a bad deal just as a pre pro, but can you?

FWIW, i was able to get a bit of a discount on my TX-RZ50 when I bought it a month ago. I'd consider that I was lucky in that respect.

Correct. This would be comparing the two models for a more specific use case (pre-outs only), not a general comparison. It is a use case that people on this board have commonly referred to though, as the 3700h is considered a good pre-pro for the money with the amps turned off. What other pre/pro can one buy for under $2k that would be better?

Edit to add: TX-RZ50 ($1400) plus a 8 channel buckeye ($1650) would be $3050. Seems like a solid setup, no?

 

[Dj7675]

Can you explain the practical consequence of this? I have Salon2s (which go well below traditional crossover points of 60 or 80) and an unopened RZ50.

I probably wouldn’t touch the Salon2’s frequency over 3-500hz....at least not with automated eq... maybe some manual eq, and only after a/b with each filter to see if I preferred the eq or not.

 

[amirm]

On the issue of crossover slope, there is a setting for Klipsch in there! I didn't try to measure it to see how it is different but found it amusing to have specific one for them. Are they sister company or something?

 

[hmt]

Can you explain the practical consequence of this? I have Salon2s (which go well below traditional crossover points of 60 or 80) and an unopened RZ50.

Also, is this something DIRAC would EQ for?

A response indicated at least 2 pre pros allow choosing a steeper slope (eg. 24db) which suggests this is a common issue not properly addressed by most AVR or pre-pros. Are there other AVRs that simply handle the management in a different way?

If this is too tangential, a PM would be welcome. Although I acquired my 1st "audiophile grade" system 26 years ago, and have had various pre-pros, I've never concerned myself with various bass issues b/c I didn't have subwoofers (living in apartments or duplexes). I now own a house and have been contemplating adding subwoofers so your content really piqued my curiosity. While the RZ50 seems to be a good fit for what I prefer to spend, if it's limitations will create future headaches, maybe I go back to the drawing board. E.g , the HTP-1 was identified as having adjustable slope. And although I didn't intend to spend $4000 on a pre pro at this point given that they all seen to be lacking in 1 area or the other (let's be frank...none of them, even the Trinnov, are SOTA for 2 channel), perhaps that's the better choice at this point. I'm not a frequent upgrader (the RZ50 is replacing a nearly decade old Integra 80.2).

Thanks.

Hello, yes many AVRs have this asymmetric XO since it is a THX legacy. A solution could be to invert the phase of your Sub. The main problem is that the phase difference bn a 12 db Oct and a 24 db Oct slope ist 180 degrees. But still since the XO of the Mains is not very steep the integration with the sub is more difficult since they have to sum correctly over a wider frequency area. The steeper the XO the smaller ist the area where Subs and Mains basically play together. A remedy here would be to implement a 12 db Oct high pass of your speaker at the selected XO frequency via dirac target curve.

 

[hmt]

On the issue of crossover slope, there is a setting for Klipsch in there! I didn't try to measure it to see how it is different but found it amusing to have specific one for them. Are they sister company or something?

Yep, afaik the owner of Onkyo (Voxx) also owns Klipsch.

 

[Koeitje]

Hmmm when looking at the digital measurements I was like...ok this is not great but good enough I guess. But the amplifier is just not good enough.