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omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

MattHooper

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Bang&Olufsen obviously don’t know what they are talking about!
mode.

5.1.3 Omni​

In some situations, it may be
preferable that the BeoLab 90's radiate
sound in all directions equally. One
example of this are when you are
throwing a party and have many
guests listening to music
simultaneously from many di erent
locations in the room. Another example
is when you have fewer persons in the
room, but they are moving around to
diferent locations and simply want
background music while they do so.

Keith

I also don't take my speaker recommendations from Bang&Olufsen.

(Haven't cared much for their speakers, that I've heard - we used to have a Bang&Olufsen flagship store nearby, I visited often - lots of fun gear).
 

gnarly

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Horses for courses, as always....

I love omnis,... line arrays, ....electrostats,..... and synergys...

Omnis for parties, background sound....and making about any recording tolerable. As the ole saying goes 'they can hide a lot of sin' lol
Ironically, I often find an omni the best solution for an overly live, overly reflective room.....maybe due to the principle 'if you can't beat em, join em.'
Keep a pair of Bose 901's running in the garage still....:)

Line arrays for their broader and even horizontal dispersion, along with more controlled vertical dispersion. No where near 'omni' like, but they spread sound out pretty good.
My 2nd favorite party and background speaker. And they do great for sweet spot listening too. Nice all rounder.
Got some DIYs sadly sitting in storage.

Electrostats are single person, sweet spot animals, imo. Despite the dipole radiation of lower frequencies, they are the most directional speaker I've encountered.
Great for lower level listening in small rooms, that have stiff construction to augment low freq room gain.
Superb for critical listening within their usually limited SPL, dynamics, and bass capabilities.
Got a pair of Acoustat-X running in the bedroom.

Synergies...my favorite for critical listening ....and another 'ironically'.....for totally rocking out. Clarity of electrostats, with all you can eat SPL, dynamics, and bass.
Can be DIYed with whatever horizontal and vertical pattern control desired. Great for keeping sound off the walls.
Can make outdoor parties come very alive, .....and indoor parties, ladies dancing on the pool table :D
Want a pair running everywhere !
 

Purité Audio

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I also don't take my speaker recommendations from Bang&Olufsen.

(Haven't cared much for their speakers, that I've heard - we used to have a Bang&Olufsen flagship store nearby, I visited often - lots of fun gear).
The 90s are superb, although you may not like them as drums sound like drums not something else.
Keith
 

MattHooper

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Alright, I'm willing to learn. Is the detail good for critical listening? With so many room reflections going on, it seems counter-intuitive.

I certainly don't feel in a position to teach you anything on the subject.

I'm mostly reacting to what was clearly based on a very narrow, personal opinion of what would fulfill the demands of "critical listening."

If it's of interest, I can just tell you why I found my omnis extremely rewarding for "critical listening."

I don't have a lot of experience listening to different omni designs - some at audio shows, and I think the Bang&Olufsen Beolab designs I used to hear at a local store were at least a wide dispersion design IIRC.

So I'm only talking about my experience listening to and owning the MBL omnis.

I hired an acoustician to help with the renovation of my 2 channel/home theater room. It's a beautiful sounding room - every speaker I've placed in the room tends to sound excellent, and I have some level of control over room reflections using curtains and some diffusion.

I started with Quad ESL 63 electrostatics in the 90's. I was intoxicated at first by the utterly boxless character of the sound and the sense of "transparency" seeing in to a recording space. Eventually I found the sound to lack punch and palpability, so I moved on to dynamic "box" speakers. Of course the ideal was a speaker that sounded as "unboxy" or "free of the box" as the Quads, but also had that density and punch to the sound - the sense of real dense instruments occupying space and moving air in the room.

The MBL omnis managed to combine those two characteristics. Totally and utterly "disappearing" as apparent sound sources, nothing at all hinting at boxy colorations, a more 3 dimensional sonic presentation than I've ever heard, and yet very dynamic, palpable and punchy. The combination of those hard-to-find attributes made for an increased sense of realism and involvement.

So a speaker that rewards critical listening to me (and most audiophiles) is one that rewards giving one's full attention to the sound/music. The sitting in the sweet spot listening thing, rather than listening to music in the background. What do I personally want out of such a speaker? I want the speaker itself to not be obvious as a sound source. I want the recording to be "free" of the speaker and to change imaging/soundstaging/acoustic space with the recording. I want a sense of air-moving density to the sound, so if someone is pounding away on a bongo or blowing on a trumpet, I have the sense of a dense instrument moving the air, more like the real thing. I want instrumental timbre to be highly distinguished - the metallic "blat" of a trumpet played hard, the sparkle of acoustic guitar strings and sense of a wooden body resonance beneath, the reediness of a reed instrument, woodiness of a wood block, metallic hard character of cymbals, chimes etc. Something that gets closer to the "surprising" character and variety I hear in real life. I want a sense of high detail that rewards my listening "in to" the recording. And I want all the production choices - processing of voices, instruments, choice of reverbs etc - to be revealed.

The MBLs did all of that for me.

Even just taking how they reproduced recordings of classical or acoustic guitars. There was an astonishing sense of "natural detail." By "natural" I mean detail more as I hear it in real life. So typically in reproduced sound I find speakers can sound very detailed, reveal the leading edge transients of guitar plucking vividly, but still sound harder and more mechanical, exaggerated. It's "a detailed recording." On the MBLs, the detail felt so fine, yet so perfectly integrated, that when listening to a good classical guitar recording, there was the sense not of "recorded detail coming through cones and tweeters" but simply the clear, warm, relaxed sound of human fingers plucking the strings. It wasn't 'in my face' detail, but, like someone playing in front of me, if I chose to I could listen right down to the texture of the "fleshy pad of fingers" on the strings. They just continued to blow my mind in such instances, given how regularly most speakers of my experience failed in that regard.

So, maybe I just had them dialed in really well in my room? I don't know. If someone says "I heard MBLs at a show and thought they sounded bad" I can just shrug and say "Ok. I've actually owned them and that's not my experience." I can only relate how I perceived things relative to other speakers. The MBLs where almost the paradigm of "rewarding critical listening" in the parameters above. Doesn't mean they were perfect. I haven't heard perfect. But they had enough qualities to certainly keep my butt in the listening seat for hours on end.
 
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MattHooper

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The 90s are superb, although you may not like them as drums sound like drums not something else.
Keith

I certainly couldn't comment on the 90's. I only heard their previous flagship speakers, more circa late 90's in to mid 2000s or so. I think, among them, the Beolab 5. I should amend my comment: I did enjoy listening to the various Bang&Olufsen speakers, found them quite pleasant. By "didn't care for" I meant more: I wouldn't ultimately choose them over speakers I've owned, though.

I'd love to hear the 90s! Seems like they'd be a real trip!
 

krabapple

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Those of you who could compare...do the Maggies and electrostatic panel speakers have a similar presentation?
Please, no.

Magnepans are not omnidirectional. A tangent about them should be its own thread.
 

krabapple

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Speaking of authorities on speaker design....

Siegfried Linkwitz:
In my experience the only hope for creating a better illusion lies with open baffle, constant directivity speakers or with non-directive speakers like acoustic point sources. A few truly omni-directional speaker designs on the market come close, but require exceptional room acoustics since they interact maximally with the room. They also have to solve the problem of box sound re-radiation through enclosure walls and cones. The only other practical constant directivity design that can extend to the lowest frequencies is the dipole radiator. It has been commonly implemented as a large plane radiator surface with magnetic or electrostatic motor and sometimes as a long and narrow ribbon driver. While these approaches solve several problems there remain issues with limited dynamic range and critical placement due to their non-uniform in-room response as a result of their large sound emitting surface areas. These problems can be overcome by using conventional electro-dynamic drivers, which have much smaller radiating surface areas. Since they can have much larger excursion capability than their planar counterparts they will displace larger volumes of air and generate higher sound pressure levels, which is especially needed at low frequencies.

A prime example of this open-baffle design approach is the ORION. It culminates for me many years of experimentation and learning. Better than any speaker that I have heard, it creates the illusion of being there. I invite you to confirm this for yourself by listening to it some place, or by taking the leap and building it for yourself. You will be richly rewarded. The alternative approach to uniform radiation, the acoustic point source, is exemplified by PLUTO+. In a good room it very closely approaches the performance of ORION despite its significantly lower cost and simplicity of construction. Accurate Stereo
 

MattHooper

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Speaking of authorities on speaker design....

Siegfried Linkwitz:

krabapple, could you explain what he means by the part you bolded?

A few truly omni-directional speaker designs on the market come close, but require exceptional room acoustics since they interact maximally with the room. They also have to solve the problem of box sound re-radiation through enclosure walls and cones.

I wonder what omnis he was alluding to. For instance, I'm not sure how that last sentence would pertain to something like the MBLs, for which much of the audio spectrum is produced by the omni-drivers, which are not enclosed.
 

fpitas

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I certainly don't feel in a position to teach you anything on the subject.

I'm mostly reacting to what was clearly based on a very narrow, personal opinion of what would fulfill the demands of "critical listening."

If it's of interest, I can just tell you why I found my omnis extremely rewarding for "critical listening."

I don't have a lot of experience listening to different omni designs - some at audio shows, and I think the Bang&Olufsen Beolab designs I used to hear at a local store were at least a wide dispersion design IIRC.

So I'm only talking about my experience listening to and owning the MBL omnis.

I hired an acoustician to help with the renovation of my 2 channel/home theater room. It's a beautiful sounding room - every speaker I've placed in the room tends to sound excellent, and I have some level of control over room reflections using curtains and some diffusion.

I started with Quad ESL 63 electrostatics in the 90's. I was intoxicated at first by the utterly boxless character of the sound and the sense of "transparency" seeing in to a recording space. Eventually I found the sound to lack punch and palpability, so I moved on to dynamic "box" speakers. Of course the ideal was a speaker that sounded as "unboxy" or "free of the box" as the Quads, but also had that density and punch to the sound - the sense of real dense instruments occupying space and moving air in the room.

The MBL omnis managed to combine those two characteristics. Totally and utterly "disappearing" as apparent sound sources, nothing at all hinting at boxy colorations, a more 3 dimensional sonic presentation than I've ever heard, and yet very dynamic, palpable and punchy. The combination of those hard-to-find attributes made for an increased sense of realism and involvement.

So a speaker that rewards critical listening to me (and most audiophiles) is one that rewards giving one's full attention to the sound/music. The sitting in the sweet spot listening thing, rather than listening to music in the background. What do I personally want out of such a speaker? I want the speaker itself to not be obvious as a sound source. I want the recording to be "free" of the speaker and to change imaging/soundstaging/acoustic space with the recording. I want a sense of air-moving density to the sound, so if someone is pounding away on a bongo or blowing on a trumpet, I have the sense of a dense instrument moving the air, more like the real thing. I want instrumental timbre to be highly distinguished - the metallic "blat" of a trumpet played hard, the sparkle of acoustic guitar strings and sense of a wooden body resonance beneath, the reediness of a reed instrument, woodiness of a wood block, metallic hard character of cymbals, chimes etc. Something that gets closer to the "surprising" character and variety I hear in real life. I want a sense of high detail that rewards my listening "in to" the recording. And I want all the production choices - processing of voices, instruments, choice of reverbs etc - to be revealed.

The MBLs did all of that for me.

Even just taking how they reproduced recordings of classical or acoustic guitars. There was an astonishing sense of "natural detail." By "natural" I mean detail more as I hear it in real life. So typically in reproduced sound I find speakers can sound very detailed, reveal the leading edge transients of guitar plucking vividly, but still sound harder and more mechanical, exaggerated. It's "a detailed recording." On the MBLs, the detail felt so fine, yet so perfectly integrated, that when listening to a good classical guitar recording, there was the sense not of "recorded detail coming through cones and tweeters" but simply the clear, warm, relaxed sound of human fingers plucking the strings. It wasn't 'in my face' detail, but, like someone playing in front of me, if I chose to I could listen right down to the texture of the "fleshy pad of fingers" on the strings. They just continued to blow my mind in such instances, given how regularly most speakers of my experience failed in that regard.

So, maybe I just had them dialed in really well in my room? I don't know. If someone says "I heard MBLs at a show and thought they sounded bad" I can just shrug and say "Ok. I've actually owned them and that's not my experience." I can only relate how I perceived things relative to other speakers. The MBLs where almost the paradigm of "rewarding critical listening" in the parameters above. Doesn't mean they were perfect. I haven't heard perfect. But they had enough qualities to certainly keep my butt in the listening seat for hours on end.
Thanks for the information.
 

krabapple

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krabapple, could you explain what he means by the part you bolded?

A few truly omni-directional speaker designs on the market come close, but require exceptional room acoustics since they interact maximally with the room. They also have to solve the problem of box sound re-radiation through enclosure walls and cones.

I wonder what omnis he was alluding to. For instance, I'm not sure how that last sentence would pertain to something like the MBLs, for which much of the audio spectrum is produced by the omni-drivers, which are not enclosed.


I don't know. Siegfried Linkwitz, (RIP) , apart from being one of the most important figures in crossover design, wrote extensively on loudspeaker design. His website, that I linked to, would be the place to start. Here it is again
 

Newman

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Speaking of authorities on speaker design....

Siegfried Linkwitz: ...A few truly omni-directional speaker designs on the market come close, but require exceptional room acoustics since they interact maximally with the room.
Very similar to my point #2 made 3 days ago.

Sigfried and me, we da thing!
 

MattHooper

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I don't know. Siegfried Linkwitz, (RIP) , apart from being one of the most important figures in crossover design, wrote extensively on loudspeaker design. His website, that I linked to, would be the place to start. Here it is again

Thanks. I was hoping you had the information from wherever you got that original quote, rather than me having to search through and entire large website database.

I did visit the site (I've seen it before) and see, in the article regarding the magic of stereo, he wrote:

Omni-directional loudspeakers are exemplified by Ohm Walsh, Bose, German Physiks and MBL;

But at this point I'm not informed as to whether Linkwitz had personal experience listening to/investigating the sound of MBLs specifically. Unless he wrote something more direct about the MBLs, that bolded quote you gave: "the problem of box sound re-radiation through enclosure walls and cones" - doesn't seem to be directed at the MBL design.

As for expertise, it's a great thing of course. But anyone of a scientific mindset would not want to think a case rested on the opinion of a single expert. Same with engineering. Even experts only have so much time to investigate every possible rabbit-hole in design, so inevitably many will go down their own "rabbit hole" of investigation and come out to what they think to be The Goal or Best Practices for a speaker design. It's why you get differences of opinions among experts/scientists/engineers etc.

Doesn't make everything relative of course. But that's why triangulating the conclusions of different experts is wiser than putting all one's stock in a single expert's opinion.

Linkwitz seems to have landed on di-poles as a compelling design to achieve what he wanted out of stereo reproduction. Other people seem fixated on a point source design as "correct."

Interestingly, quite a bit of attention has been paid to the demos of the Linkwitz lab dipole speaker at recent audio shows. I'd read impressions from the shows and most commented on the fabulous spatial presentation and imaging of those speakers. I also remember some remarking they found the sound a bit soft with the highs and transients, which those people may find to be a requirement of the sound they want (or what they find to be more life-like).
 

krabapple

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Thanks. I was hoping you had the information from wherever you got that original quote,

'Wherever' was literally linked to in the post you first responded to. The very page itself.


rather than me having to search through and entire large website database.

Life is hard.

But anyone of a scientific mindset would not want to think a case rested on the opinion of a single expert.

I would want to think that a normal person who had a clue about SL would find his ideas about speaker radiation a relevant contribution to the topic, but not assume that I considered them the last word. Much less require finger-wagging about 'scientific mindsets'.
 
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MattHooper

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'Wherever' was literally linked to in the post you first responded to. The very page itself.

Ah, I was thrown a bit by your second link saying "here it is again" which I thought was a repeat of your first links. So it was confusing not to see the discussion of omnis. Now I see your original post had an embedded link to the page with that quote. Sorry about that.

In any case, it does seem that original quote from Linkwitz wouldn't directly apply to the MBLs, at least for the omni-directional drivers.
 

MattHooper

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I just did a quick search to see if Linkwitz had anything to say about the MBL speakers. Found this:


There are some real engineering marvels amongst these speakers, like the MBL Radial Strahler. It is the only speaker amongst these that has constant directivity at all frequencies. Horizontally it is omni-directional – as in this graph - and thus would meet my criteria for a high sound quality speaker, but unfortunately it has vented ports for unnatural bass enhancement. Besides, some directionality, like in a dipole or cardioid, is advantageous because it increases the direct to reverberant ratio at the listening position.


So he clearly saw some good in the MBLs, though isn't a fan of ported bass and would prefer dipole. Not exactly trashing the MBLs, though.
I wonder if he actually had any experience listening to a pair of MBLs, especially in a room where there was some control over reflectivity.

As I've mentioned, even a very technically accomplished person can be guided by his own goals/likes/dislikes. Some may hear a Linkwitz dipole and, like Linkwitz, feel they are the bees knees. Another person may not and prefer something else. I haven't heard the Linkwitz speakers, but one thing I've noticed in my reaction to dipoles of my experience, is that...yes...they tend to sound less boxy, and recreate a more realistic sense of space and imaging. But they also seem to lack a bit of palpability and punch relative to many other designs. Again, that's one of the ways my box speakers and even the MBL omnis exceeded any omni stat I've heard, or omni with dynamic driver. But, this is just my personal sonic impressions - I've seen other people express the same thing, but I'm certainly not putting it forth as some objective claim.
 

gnarly

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Linkwitz seems to have landed on di-poles as a compelling design to achieve what he wanted out of stereo reproduction. Other people seem fixated on a point source design as "correct."
As many folks have said many times...and something that makes total sense to me.... our choice in music is probably the major factor in our type of speaker preference.

It makes common sense that classical, and any other forms of music that were recorded in environments made for a sense of envelopment,
that di-poles or omnis, or rather speakers that radiate a higher ratio of reflected sound, will sound best.

And that studio recorded music likely sounds best with speakers that have a higher direct-to-reflected ratio.

With audio reproduction, it always comes back to horses for courses, imho.
 

HeadDoc12

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I am still very curious about Von Schweikert speakers. Their top-of-the-line series have tweeters in the back with adjustable SPL, so they can work as conventional three (or more?) -way floorstanders, or quasi-dipole (or bipole?) to suit the room, the music, and the listeners' taste and mood. I would love to hear them in a proper setting, but can't imagine owning them even if I won the lottery.
 

Newman

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As many folks have said many times...and something that makes total sense to me.... our choice in music is probably the major factor in our type of speaker preference.
It makes common sense that classical, and any other forms of music that were recorded in environments made for a sense of envelopment, that di-poles or omnis, or rather speakers that radiate a higher ratio of reflected sound, will sound best.
And that studio recorded music likely sounds best with speakers that have a higher direct-to-reflected ratio.
With audio reproduction, it always comes back to horses for courses, imho.
Since (IIRC more than one person) has introduced the suggestion to this thread that certain speakers are more suited to certain music types and less to other types, or need 'voicing' per music type, or suit person A but not person B, let me introduce Floyd Toole's published thought on that general principle:-

Screen Shot 2022-08-03 at 9.43.03 am.png

PS this is a cut/paste of my earlier post in another thread to similar claims making the rounds. People keep making this mistake.

cheers
 

MattHooper

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I am still very curious about Von Schweikert speakers. Their top-of-the-line series have tweeters in the back with adjustable SPL, so they can work as conventional three (or more?) -way floorstanders, or quasi-dipole (or bipole?) to suit the room, the music, and the listeners' taste and mood. I would love to hear them in a proper setting, but can't imagine owning them even if I won the lottery.

FWIW: I used to own VR 4 Gen II speakers. They had an adjustable rear-firing tweeter. It did seem to work in adding spaciousness when turned up. However, I also found it negatively affected the timbral nuance, so I tended to have it dialed down quite a bit. I've seen numerous people having the same reaction to rear-firing tweeters. Not saying they aren't implemented better in newer VR designs, or other speakers.
 

MattHooper

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Since (IIRC more than one person) has introduced the suggestion to this thread that certain speakers are more suited to certain music types and less to other types, or need 'voicing' per music type, or suit person A but not person B, let me introduce Floyd Toole's published thought on that general principle:-

Screen Shot 2022-08-03 at 9.43.03 am.png

PS this is a cut/paste of my earlier post in another thread to similar claims making the rounds. People keep making this mistake.

cheers


EKoQmJOW4AYAfgD.jpg
 
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