New production three way Big bookshelf speakers

[Mnyb]

The form factor allows for a more classic driver complement with a large bass driver and wide front baffles .
these designes phased out due to fashion and home decor rather than pure acoustical concerns . Even compromise performance ?

many brands have worked around it and have good slim towers to , wide baffle speakers have a different set of compromises some listeners like that .

in their marketing white papers KEF a modern speaker manufacturers make it sound like a slim front is desirable in all cases , but they are a bit selective in how they present data ( it’s my favorite brand I own mostly kef speakers now , so I don’t pick on them in particular).
but the number one factor in commercial speaker design is that someone must desire to buy the speaker or they go broke.
so everyone adapts to current fashion .

but 90dB sensitivity and high impedance excludes almost all modern speakers.
and it’s some of the most fudged data in speakers ( low frequency extension and nominal impedance are the others ) so 90dBw for real ?
you can almost always remove 3dB due the speakers are in practice 4 ohm even if they say 8 ohm . So the 2,83 volts who give 1w in 8 ohm are 2w ? If they are Klipsh speakers remove 10dB . Look at third party measurement for this spec ( or buy a kW of class D amp and don’t care )

as power is cheap nowadays high sensitivity is not a priority ,but I bet ASR members will find exceptions to post in this tread..

 

[Mosquito]

The form factor allows for a more classic driver complement with a large bass driver and wide front baffles .
these designes phased out due to fashion and home decor rather than pure acoustical concerns . Even compromise performance ?

many brands have worked around it and have good slim towers to , wide baffle speakers have a different set of compromises some listeners like that .

in their marketing white papers KEF a modern speaker manufacturers make it sound like a slim front is desirable in all cases , but they are a bit selective in how they present data ( it’s my favorite brand I own mostly kef speakers now , so I don’t pick on them in particular).
but the number one factor in commercial speaker design is that someone must desire to buy the speaker or they go broke.
so everyone adapts to current fashion .

but 90dB sensitivity and high impedance excludes almost all modern speakers.
and it’s some of the most fudged data in speakers ( low frequency extension and nominal impedance are the others ) so 90dBw for real ?
you can almost always remove 3dB due the speakers are in practice 4 ohm even if they say 8 ohm . So the 2,83 volts who give 1w in 8 ohm are 2w ? If they are Klipsh speakers remove 10dB . Look at third party measurement for this spec ( or buy a kW of class D amp and don’t care )

as power is cheap nowadays high sensitivity is not a priority ,but I bet ASR members will find exceptions to post in this tread..

I do not particulary care about deep bass, I'm a stereo person that listen music program, not movies sound tracks. Some 45 Hz f3 is good enough for me. Efficience instead must be high enough to listen classic orchestral, Louis Prima, and Led Zeppelin at reasonable volume in a medium sized room, whose walls are made from old flat bricks , and floor made of granite tiles over concrete layer.

 

[DanielT]

Yes, I intend "friendly" for a 15 watt 6BQ5, the Linton does not fit, nor does the Dovedales with that unacceptable impedance behavior

Now it is a new ball game with a 15 watt tube amp.

How loud do you play music? Mostly at "normal" listening volume? Have you measured with, for example, a free dB app so you know what level it is at? It is of big importance what sensitivity your speakers should have together with a 15 watt tube amp. I mean do you mostly play at 65-70dB or do you like to play at high volume 90dB or more (much more than that, besides be careful of your ears, don't do it with a 15 watt tube amp).

In addition to that, I think you should think about what I added in #36, that is, add an active subwoofer together with LP-HP filter, then it will relieve your tube amp from struggling with the lowest frequencies. Even better if you DIY a three-way speaker, let a class D amp take care of the bass drivers and your tube amp can then work with mids and tweeters.

Edit:
Missed, now I saw you wrote: "high enough to listen classic orchestral,.." even more challenging because that type of music can often have a lot of dynamics, and thus require quite a lot of amp power. But that depends on what you mean by "high enough"?
With large high-efficiency horn speakers together with compression drivers,then it works fine. A classic combo horn and low powered tube amps.
But then we are not talking about bookshelf speakers anymore.

You're not making it easy on yourself, I must say.,,

 

[Jim Taylor]

@Mosquito :

The choices of musical fidelity in the modern world are based on two things: 1) advances in electronic and electro-mechanical technology, and 2) competitive forces in the marketplace.

Your choice of a 15-watt tube amp flies in the face of these two forces. Sixty years ago, things would have been different. Loudspeakers with high impedance and reasonably high sensitivity were common. Things have changed.

Even if you could find speakers with high(er) sensitivity (like the Klipsch Heresy), they would probably lack high impedance (like the Klipsch Heresy ... less than 5 ohms below 200 cycles). (The KLH Model 5 has similar problems.) Not only that, but the iconic speakers of yesteryear were floorstanders; "bookshelf" designs were enabled to a greater and greater degree by the higher power of solid-state amplification or higher-wattage tube amplification. (I'm thinking of the Dynaco speakers here.)

There are designs out there today that are friendly to low-wattage tube amplification, but they lack fidelity.

Basically, the marketplace no longer supports all your priorities.

Jim

p.s. - If the price doesn't make you soil your pants, check out the Tannoy Legacy series.

 

[DanielT]

I won't nag about this one again because I brought it up in #12 BUT I'm doing it anyway now given the information that came out about the 15 watt tube amp. Check the measured data on it. Klang & Ton even write about that kit:

Impedance correction
If you want to use a valve amplifier with this speaker an impedance correction should be employed. In this case the component quality is less important; therefore, we offer only one kit (upon request higher quality components are available).

The combination sensitivity of 92dB with such good FR and low distortion is unusual. An active sub that works up to 50-70 Hz plus then LP -HP filter, it should work well together with OP's 15 watt tube amp. It becomes (roughly in a way) a three-way speaker then.

What might be a problem is the impedance.Here is the impedance of the PowerCor Light kit. Whether it is with or without that impedance correction that Klang & Ton wrote about, I don't know, but maybe someone else here knows more about that? Or you can write to Klang & Ton and ask them about it:

Around 5 Ohm from 2 kHz and up in frequency. Shouldn't be a problem for a well constructed tube amp, BUT someone with more tube amp knowledgeable can answer that. Also, we don't yet know the make and model of the OP's tube amp. Before that, it may be difficult to say anything. Maybe the OP's tube amp is only designed for 8 Ohm (not lower than that) speakers? OP can tell more about that.

Anyway, it's a speaker (with sub) + together with well designed 15 watt tube amp that I could have in my apartment. In addition, I rarely play at such a very high volume because I take the neighbors into account.
(in practice not for me it because a well constructed/designed commercial 15 watt tube amp is likely to be damn expensive)

PowerCor Light

Shelf speaker,PowerCor Light,bass reflex,loudspeaker,DIY kit,Wavecor TW030WA11(wc-tw030wa11-01), SB Audience BIANCO-10MW200(sba-b-10MW200)

www.lautsprechershop.de

 

[gwing]

Mainly classical music to reasonable levels in a medium size room from a 15W valve amp? No problem with that, it should do it easily but it will like a nice sensitive speaker, likely a biggish one with paper cones, and definitely without erratic impedance curves.

Even back in the 70s-20s when I ran that sort of system such speakers were not easy to come by and it's even harder now - in your position I'd be looking around the used equipment dealers and ebay etc. However even back then finding suitable speakers that you actually liked listening to could be challenging - I ended up with a much bigger and more powerful tube amp, not because it wasn't loud enough or good enough, but so that it could drive a much wider choice of speakers adequately.

 

[gwing]

Mainly classical music to reasonable levels in a medium size room from a 15W valve amp? No problem with that, it should do it easily but it will like a nice sensitive speaker, likely a biggish one with paper cones, and definitely without erratic impedance curves.

Even back in the 70s-20s when I ran that sort of system such speakers were not easy to come by and it's even harder now - in your position I'd be looking around the used equipment dealers and ebay etc. However even back then finding suitable speakers that you actually liked listening to could be challenging - I ended up with a much bigger and more powerful tube amp, not because it wasn't loud enough or good enough, but so that it could drive a much wider choice of speakers adequately.

P.S. I see that Audio Note still manufacture their AN E series of speakers and are ideal for the purpose. I hated the sound of the one my pal had back in the day though, that said it produced shatteringly fast dynamics from a mere 8w amp.

 

[DanielT]

P.S. I see that Audio Note still manufacture their AN E series of speakers and are ideal for the purpose. I hated the sound of the one my pal had back in the day though, that said it produced shatteringly fast dynamics from a mere 8w amp.

Considering Audio Note AN-E's FR:

Then maybe it wasn't so strange that you hated the sound.

Additionally : The Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature was one of the more sensitive dynamic speakers I have measured, at an estimated 92.5dB(B)/2.83V/m, though it should be noted that this is well below the specified 98dB figure.

Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

That the price performance ratio for AN speakers is abysmally bad hardly makes them more appealing.

A thread about AN:

Audio Note speakers

What's the deal with Audio Note speakers ? They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K) And it seems they're "legendary " speakers on other audiophile forums. What's so special about them ?

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jim Taylor]

I said that I would see what I could dig up, and I've been searching.

One of the biggest barriers to your qualifications is that it be a 3-way speaker. The solutions I've seen are 2-way ... and not only that , but they are kits. I see this as a consequence of what I mentioned previously - that the market has changed and no longer supports speakers that satisfy your requirements.

IF you are comfortable with a 2-way and a kit, however, there is a speaker that is, despite its smallish size, quite high in both sensitivity and impedance minimus, and possessing a good fidelity. It is the "Plutone", from Humble Homemade Hi-fi. The link is here. The advantage over the previously-mentioned Gema is that it is both higher in sensitivity and impedance minimus, two things your tube amp will appreciate.

If those compromises are unpalatable to you, then I have no idea what could fulfill your quest. Sorry 'bout that.

Jim

 

[Mosquito]

View attachment 369463
Around 5 Ohm from 2 kHz and up in frequency. Shouldn't be a problem for a well constructed tube amp, BUT someone with more tube amp knowledgeable can answer that. Also, we don't yet know the make and model of the OP's tube amp. Before that, it may be difficult to say anything. Maybe the OP's tube amp is only designed for 8 Ohm (not lower than that) speakers? OP can tell more about that.

Anyway, it's a speaker (with sub) + together with well designed 15 watt tube amp that I could have in my apartment. In addition, I rarely play at such a very high volume because I take the neighbors into account.
(in practice not for me it because a well constructed/designed commercial 15 watt tube amp is likely to be damn expensive)
View attachment 369462

PowerCor Light

Shelf speaker,PowerCor Light,bass reflex,loudspeaker,DIY kit,Wavecor TW030WA11(wc-tw030wa11-01), SB Audience BIANCO-10MW200(sba-b-10MW200)

www.lautsprechershop.de

In fact, 5 Ohm pose no problem with a well designed tube amp featuring right ammount of NFB.

 

[Mosquito]

DIY is the path to follow then, to make happy Me, and my amplifier.

 

[Ron Texas]

A specification for a bookshelf speaker with a 10" woofer seems like a solution in search of a problem. Maybe the OP needs some vintage speakers.

 

[Mosquito]

A specification for a bookshelf speaker with a 10" woofer seems like a solution in search of a problem. Maybe the OP needs some vintage speakers.

Stand mounting intended to say. I always refer to stand mounted speakers as "bookshelves" even though I would never put a speaker on a shelf.

 

[Penelinfi]

Yamaha ns-200m

 

[DanielT]

Stand mounting intended to say. I always refer to stand mounted speakers as "bookshelves" even though I would never put a speaker on a shelf.

So then you have to have speaker stands for them so why not buy floor standing speakers because regardless of what you choose, it will take up the same physical space in your listening room?

Here's how you can do it. Speakers that are given the possibility of bi amping, for example the good Audio Silver 500 7G, so based on the source let's say a DAC with volume control. You split the signal from the DAC up to two amplifiers. Both amplifiers must have volume/gain setting options (or at least one of them, the one with the most power then).
You let a sufficiently powerful class D or AB amp take care of the bass. In the case of the Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G, I think the crossover point is at 800 Hz. So all that for mids and tweeters your 15 watt tube amp will handle. With a speaker sensitivity of 90.5 dB, you should be home free.
As long as you don't play at very high volume with very dynamic music. But on the other hand, the class D or AB amplifier has to struggle with that, so to speak. The most energy is spent on amplifying or working with the lowest frequencies. A tweeter, on the contrary, needs hardly any energy or power at all. Mid of course then in between in need of power.
(an active subwoofer may have an amplifier of 500 watts or more for example)

That IF you don't you think it would just a hybrid abomination? Then I've missed how much money you want to spend on your speakers. If the Audio Silver 500 7G suits your wallet that is.

Monitor Audio Silver 500 7g

Nice measurements today from Soundstage hifi…someone get Amir the 100 7g https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2685:nrc-measurements-monitor-audio-silver-500-7g-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

audiosciencereview.com

OT:
In fact if I had knowledge like horias2000 it would be fun to build a tube amp as nice as he did and put it into a solution like I mentioned above.
(the tube amp would be visible when it shines nicely with its tubes and I would hide the class D amp away)

DIY tube amps, if you have the knowledge, because it's a fun hobby, I fully understand.

Building a valve amplifier

One of my next projects is a valve amplifier. I built many solid state amplifiers and I'm very happy with these. I always considered valve amplifiers as being vastly inferior to solid state one but nevertheless I would like to build one to measure it and to listen to it. From all the available...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jim Taylor]

Stand mounting intended to say. I always refer to stand mounted speakers as "bookshelves" even though I would never put a speaker on a shelf.

So then you have to have speaker stands for them so why not buy floor standing speakers because regardless of what you choose, it will take up the same physical space in your listening room?

Maybe the OP feels the need to adjust the height of the design axis relative to his listening position. This can be done with adjustable stands keeping the speaker upright, or it can be done with stands that tilt, so that the axis can be "aimed".

The reason for this is that it can improve performance in the relative nearfield. I routinely listen in the nearfield, and I have had problems aligning floorstanders to sound their best when used this way. Head movements laterally can be tolerated rather well with the right designs, but head movement vertically (like reaching for a folder) are usually a problem.

When the OP initially asked about "3-ways" and "bookshelves", this use case immediately came to mind. Most nearfield designs are bass limited, and you'll notice that the two suggestions I made to the OP were speakers with adequate bass.

Personally, I dislike using a sub as a solution to this nearfield problem; I would rather have a speaker with adequate bass native to the design.

Of course, this might all be projection on my part, too. Perhaps the OP has a totally different problem.

Jim

 

[Mosquito]

Good point, but there is also an aestetic preference in my case. No subwoofer for me, I listen to music, not film tracks.

 

[holdingpants01]

not new but currently manufactured: ATC SCM50/100/150 - 10/12/15"

 

[Purité Audio]

Good point, but there is also an aestetic preference in my case. No subwoofer for me, I listen to music, not film tracks.

This century music has bass in it too.
Keith

 

[Mnyb]

I have two subs in my music only system

Here's another contender but only two way . Vestlyd 12C or 15C they have high sensitivity and are coaxial

V15C

15" power monitor with massive power and great hi-fi qualities. V15C delivers insane dynamics, soundstage, and heavy bass, even in huge rooms.

vestlyd.com