New Denon 3700/4700 DAC chip

[Everett T]

D&M could learn a thing or two from RME how to communicate with customers:

I know it's old, but RME's customer isn't as broad as D&M and releasing that type of update could cost them in the mass market. Not that I care, just my .02

 

[Trell]

I know it's old, but RME's customer isn't as broad as D&M and releasing that type of update could cost them in the mass market. Not that I care, just my .02

My point in the post is that the D&M communication to customers about choice of new DAC is very poor, especially compared to RME.

 

[Everett T]

My point in the post is that the D&M communication to customers about choice of new DAC is very poor, especially compared to RME.

I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out why.

 

[peng]

My point in the post is that the D&M communication to customers about choice of new DAC is very poor, especially compared to RME.

Agreed, but at least Denon.jp did say they were replacing the AK4458 for the X4700H, X6700H and X2700H. Marantz has not said anything yet. If it wasn't someone posted a tear down video on Youtube, we wouldn't even know they have replaced the AK4490 in the AV8805A. The ES9010K2M that has 6 dB lower SINAD and 4 dB lower in DR. Not a bad spec but when they switch to something with lower specs they should tell people.

 

[jrocks29]

Even if our DAC chips are slightly worse at least they fixed the HDMI 2.1 bugs on the latter receivers and we don't need the stupid box to make it work correctly.

omg are you kidding me, frame rate for video games over sound quality for everything. Yeah what a win for everyone!

 

[wseroyer]

omg are you kidding me, frame rate for video games over sound quality for everything. Yeah what a win for everyone!

For me FPS in video games is most important as that's many what I use my system for. any slight difference that you think your hearing will be in your head and you tying to confirm your bias towards the new replacement DAC. Amir's measurements of the 3700 and 4700 show that the old AKM DAC's performed no where near their full potential, this will be probably be much of the same with Texas Instruments DAC's that they are using as replacements.

 

[Nonick]

Any 3700/4700/DRA800H/NR1200 units manufactured after May 2021 use a PCM5102A, 32-bit DAC from Texas Instrument. Didnt have the oportunity to test 3700H, but i received brand new DRA800h with PCM5102A.
Audible tweeter hiss, audible humming noise from transformer within unit. Booming bass and harsh, almost resonant female vocals.
So i purchased additional used DRA800H 2yrs old with AKM dac. Less tweeter hiss, tighter bass and acceptable, non resonant vocals. No humming inside the unit.

 

[peng]

For me FPS in video games is most important as that's many what I use my system for. any slight difference that you think your hearing will be in your head and you tying to confirm your bias towards the new replacement DAC. Amir's measurements of the 3700 and 4700 show that the old AKM DAC's performed no where near their full potential, this will be probably be much of the same with Texas Instruments DAC's that they are using as replacements.

Based on specs and measurements, you are right except the last sentence, but since you include the word "probably", you got yourself covered lol.... The fact is, the new dac chip, supposedly the PCM5102A, has much higher THD+N vs the original AK4458, high enough that it is now the bottleneck in the signal chain, though overall it may or may not result in audible difference to a lot of people.

 

[NYfan2]

Any 3700/4700/DRA800H/NR1200 units manufactured after May 2021 use a PCM5102A, 32-bit DAC from Texas Instrument. Didnt have the oportunity to test 3700H, but i received brand new DRA800h with PCM5102A.
Audible tweeter hiss, audible humming noise from transformer within unit. Booming bass and harsh, almost resonant female vocals.
So i purchased additional used DRA800H 2yrs old with AKM dac. Less tweeter hiss, tighter bass and acceptable, non resonant vocals. No humming inside the unit.

Will be interesting to see how this DAC measures in the Denon application compared to the versionwith AKM DAC. Let's hope someone send one to Armir.

I have an AVC-X3700h that I ordered in June 2021 and received end of September. I don't recognise the problems that you had with the DRA800h.
Before I had a PioneerSX-S30 and although I didn't expect too much I was pleasantly suprised with the quality of the Denon, ofcourse I have no reference so I don't know if the difference between the AKM and the TI DAC is audible.

 

[Brambo67]

Any 3700/4700/DRA800H/NR1200 units manufactured after May 2021 use a PCM5102A, 32-bit DAC from Texas Instrument. Didnt have the oportunity to test 3700H, but i received brand new DRA800h with PCM5102A.
Audible tweeter hiss, audible humming noise from transformer within unit. Booming bass and harsh, almost resonant female vocals.
So i purchased additional used DRA800H 2yrs old with AKM dac. Less tweeter hiss, tighter bass and acceptable, non resonant vocals. No humming inside the unit.

The ‘800’ uses the PCM1690 (and not the PCM5102) which also is used in the Onkyo TX-RZ50. There it performes similar to the AKM DAC in the ‘3700/4700’, from a THD+N perspective that is. In the Onkyo it performs better than its spec’s but it does the same in some tests performed by ‘user22’ in the ‘800-thread’. In all cases the performance is >94 dB. The amps however are in both 800 versions poor and way below the DAC’s.

 

[peng]

The ‘800’ uses the PCM1690 (and not the PCM5102) which also is used in the Onkyo TX-RZ50. There it performes similar to the AKM DAC in the ‘3700/4700’, from a THD+N perspective that is. In the Onkyo it performs better than its spec’s but it does the same in some tests performed by ‘user22’ in the ‘800-thread’. In all cases the performance is >94 dB. The amps however are in both 800 versions poor and way below the DAC’s.

That would be good news, but are we sure the unit that Amir measured has the PCM1690 or the AK4458? I am wondering this because like D+M's Onkyo might have the AK4458 in some of their units manufactured before a certain date due to supply issue as well. This DAC chip thing is getting silly now that manufacturers don't even tell you what they use anymore. That being said, probably most people don't care which one they use, but those who care about measurements apparently do.

For one thing, I noticed that according to the manual, the RZ50 supports DSD up to 11.2 MHz, that is good too, no D+M models, not even the $5,000 AV8805A can play DSD 11.2 MHz native. That's same as Yamaha's.

TX-RZ50 specs:
DSD (.dsf/.dff) • DSF/DSDIFF/2.8 MHz, 5.6 MHz, 11.2 MH

vs D+M's:
DSD 2.8/5.6 MHz 2-channel – .dsf/.dff

 

[Nonick]

The ‘800’ uses the PCM1690 (and not the PCM5102) which also is used in the Onkyo TX-RZ50. There it performes similar to the AKM DAC in the ‘3700/4700’, from a THD+N perspective that is. In the Onkyo it performs better than its spec’s but it does the same in some tests performed by ‘user22’ in the ‘800-thread’. In all cases the performance is >94 dB. The amps however are in both 800 versions poor and way below the DAC’s.

Denon DRA800H uses PCM1502A.
DRA800 which i have in front of me, purchased 5 days ago brand new. Opened, checked and it is PCM1502A for the main zone.

 

[Brambo67]

Denon DRA800H uses PCM1502A.
DRA800 which i have in front of me, purchased 5 days ago brand new. Opened, checked and it is PCM1502A for the main zone.

So the 'downgraded' even further, still it by far isn't the weakest link in the whole soundchain of this receiver.

 

[peng]

So the 'downgraded' even further, still it by far isn't the weakest link in the whole soundchain of this receiver.

I would agree if used by itself. If someone buy it mainly for preamp/DAC use then the DAC chip is likely the weakest link.

 

[KMO]

no D+M models, not even the $5,000 AV8805A can play DSD 11.2 MHz native. That's same as Yamaha's.

To get picky, can any current D+M model play any DSD native? The new DACs are PCM-only.

 

[peng]

To get picky, can any current D+M model play any DSD native? The new DACs are PCM-only.

Funny you asked as I was thinking the same. I didn't say it because the D+M websites (product info sheet, owner's manuals etc.) still publish the same info on DSD related info (as I pasted in my post#71) exactly the same way as they did before the DAC change. That implies "Native" as long as it is up to DSD128 (5.6 MHz) two channel. May be D+M's spec on this is sort of subject to interpretation.

 

[KMO]

There was some discussion on a previous thread here - the new units present the same user interface, including saying "DSD DIRECT" when playing DSD in DIRECT mode. But they must be converting to PCM.

There's possibly nothing in the manual that explicitly says "DSD DIRECT" is actually direct and not converting to PCM...

 

[Fahzz]

By serial number I have a 3700 version 2. Music comes in from an Allo Boss2 Player streamer, with it's own DAC into an analog input on the AVR. Music goes from preouts to an outboard amp for my fronts.
Am I correct in my thinking that this DAC kerfuffle doesn't matter in my set up as far as music goes?

 

[Chrispy]

By serial number I have a 3700 version 2. Music comes in from an Allo Boss2 Player streamer, with it's own DAC into an analog input on the AVR. Music goes from preouts to an outboard amp for my fronts.
Am I correct in my thinking that this DAC kerfuffle doesn't matter in my set up as far as music goes?

Do you use any processing in the avr?

 

[Fahzz]

Not sure what processing is and isn't on this-Audyssey? Something else?