New Denon 3700/4700 DAC chip

[mike7877]

I've been looking everywhere and can't seem to find an answer.

Which DAC chip has Denon gone with in their receivers now? I bought a 3700 and from its serial number I think it was manufactured in May of this year. It sounds all right, probably good enough for movies, but compared to a DAC I have hooked up to the analogue input with a THD=N of 102db, it's clearly inferior.

Have ANY measurements been done of new Denon devices which previously used the AKM 4458?
How do they compare?
Which DAC is used?

 

[wseroyer]

I just got a new Denon AVR-x4700h this week, I have the same question.

 

[ShadowFiend]

No matter which DAC chip they use, the performance of Denon receiver will be limited by the 8-channel volume control IC right after that.

 

[dougi]

I don't think anyone truly knows yet, going by this thread on the issue. thread

 

[mike7877]

No matter which DAC chip they use, the performance of Denon receiver will be limited by the 8-channel volume control IC right after that.

Wrong. Or my DAC with a 102db THD+N would not sound any better than the DAC built in. But it does!

 

[wseroyer]

Wrong. Or my DAC with a 102db THD+N would not sound any better than the DAC built in. But it does!

Even if our DAC chips are slightly worse at least they fixed the HDMI 2.1 bugs on the latter receivers and we don't need the stupid box to make it work correctly.

 

[peng]

Wrong. Or my DAC with a 102db THD+N would not sound any better than the DAC built in. But it does!

But then someone will say unless you did a truly apples to apples comparison in DBT, the "better.." you heard would be subjective, influenced by blablabla..., an endless debate/discussion, same as the that between amps of supposedly transparent yet people claimed they sounded different, even night and day differences.

By the way, when you use the external DAC using the analog input you did select direct mode or pure direct mode right?

 

[mike7877]

But then someone will say unless you did a truly apples to apples comparison in DBT, the "better.." you heard would be subjective, influenced by blablabla..., an endless debate/discussion, same as the that between amps of supposedly transparent yet people claimed they sounded different, even night and day differences.

By the way, when you use the external DAC using the analog input you did select direct mode or pure direct mode right?

Yes, direct and pure direct modes only. If left in auto/stereo, performance is degraded to a level of performance probably slightly less than just the built in DAC. Not by much though.

It doesn't sound bad, but if the previous version sounds better I want to do what I can to get one before they're completely unavailable

 

[mike7877]

Even if our DAC chips are slightly worse at least they fixed the HDMI 2.1 bugs on the latter receivers and we don't need the stupid box to make it work correctly.

True

 

[SirMaster]

But how do you know it sounds better?

Have you performed measurements?

If it's just your subjective opinion that it sounds better, how can you be sure it's not just a preference? Maybe someone else would not agree that the difference sounds better?

Universally, "better" should mean closer to the original signal. But preference based listening tests do not tell you if something is necessarily closer to the original signal. If it did, we would not have such things as the Harman curve.

 

[mike7877]

But how do you know it sounds better?

Have you performed measurements?

If it's just your subjective opinion that it sounds better, how can you be sure it's not just a preference? Maybe someone else would not agree that the difference sounds better?

Universally, "better" should mean closer to the original signal. But preference based listening tests do not tell you if something is necessarily closer to the original signal. If it did, we would not have such things as the Harman curve.

No measurements, don't have equipment. But I have good ears and a brain. There's a lower noise floor and a more extended top octave when using the external DAC. People with working ears would agree. Additionally, there's more detail throughout the audio band, which I'm quite confident would show up in measurements if they were done.

Everyone with working eyes can say similarly sized 4k TVs are sharper than 2k TVs. Not sure why I can't point out objective differences detected by ear.

Anyway, this isn't a thread for discussing what people can or can't hear, it's for posting which new DAC chip Denon is using

 

[Jbrunwa]

Here is what I saw on Facebook Denon group who claimed info came from Denon:

3700H and 4700H goes from 2 x AK4458 to 7 x TIBurrBrown PCM5102A
6700H goes from 2 xAK4458 to 8 x TI BurBrown PCM5102A
8500HA goes from 8 x AK4490 to 8 x ESS Technology ES9010K2M
A110 is 8x AK4490 for the whole production run

I can’t vouch for the credibility except that the info seems pretty specific.

 

[rccarguy]

Here is what I saw on Facebook Denon group who claimed info came from Denon:

3700H and 4700H goes from 2 x AK4458 to 7 x TIBurrBrown PCM5102A
6700H goes from 2 xAK4458 to 8 x TI BurBrown PCM5102A
8500HA goes from 8 x AK4490 to 8 x ESS Technology ES9010K2M
A110 is 8x AK4490 for the whole production run

I can’t vouch for the credibility except that the info seems pretty specific.

Is any of that good or bad?

 

[Jbrunwa]

Is any of that good or bad?

AFAIK these are all good quality DACs of comparable class for given AVR. someone I’m sure will correct me if I’m wrong. Obviously the new chips were not Denon’s first choice, but that decision might have been based on other factors such as price, smaller footprint or fewer chips with the original implementation.

 

[Chrispy]

No measurements, don't have equipment. But I have good ears and a brain. There's a lower noise floor and a more extended top octave when using the external DAC. People with working ears would agree. Additionally, there's more detail throughout the audio band, which I'm quite confident would show up in measurements if they were done.

Everyone with working eyes can say similarly sized 4k TVs are sharper than 2k TVs. Not sure why I can't point out objective differences detected by ear.

Anyway, this isn't a thread for discussing what people can or can't hear, it's for posting which new DAC chip Denon is using

So you couldn't even level match?

 

[dougi]

PCM5102A is a significant step down with SINAD of only 93dB or so max. See the Yamaha RX-V6A review. Note though that, as usual Amir doesn't bother looking at the pre-out spec and tests at 2V which it really isn't happy with.

 

[peng]

Here is what I saw on Facebook Denon group who claimed info came from Denon:

3700H and 4700H goes from 2 x AK4458 to 7 x TIBurrBrown PCM5102A
6700H goes from 2 xAK4458 to 8 x TI BurBrown PCM5102A
8500HA goes from 8 x AK4490 to 8 x ESS Technology ES9010K2M
A110 is 8x AK4490 for the whole production run

I can’t vouch for the credibility except that the info seems pretty specific.

I said that more than once before and will say this again, that such claims are not credible. If true, that's bad news in terms of measurements.

 

[Masza]

PCM5102A is a significant step down with SINAD of only 93dB or so max. See the Yamaha RX-V6A review. Note though that, as usual Amir doesn't bother looking at the pre-out spec and tests at 2V which it really isn't happy with.

The Yamaha you are refering to has ~93 dB SINAD at max. The DAC chip itself may have better performance. Manufacturer claims 112 dB but ofc that's the manufacturer: https://www.ti.com/product/PCM5102A

 

[peng]

If Denon actually uses the PCM5102 for the main channels, it would be the worse (based on SINAD) one they have ever used for years, though they did come close (within one dB if I remember right) once or twice.

Regardless, I highly doubt that would be the case based on the photo of the DAC board on the Denon website (that I posted/linked at least twice so anyone can just look it up). Why that rumor about this most likely fake news is still going around is very interesting.

 

[dougi]

The Yamaha you are refering to has ~93 dB SINAD at max. The DAC chip itself may have better performance. Manufacturer claims 112 dB but ofc that's the manufacturer: https://www.ti.com/product/PCM5102A

Not quite, we are both incorrect. SNR (noise alone) is quoted as 112dB, but THD (distortion alone) is 93. Given that is a fair way worse than SNR, then SINAD (noise and distortion) will be that (~93dB) as well.