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Neumann KH150

DJBonoBobo

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I listened to the KH150 vs a 8351 and a Dutch & Dutch 8c today in a 12sqm room (thanks, @Hörzone). All of them without EQ, but the room was equipped with quite a lot of treatment, including AVAAs. It was less dry than my own room, though, and i cannot make valid comparisons to my own calibrated system. It was the first time hearing a Genelec for me. For me personally it was an interesting experience, but i don't think it is of much worth for others. I am not a trained listener and the setting was not controlled at all, i just listened to each of the speakers for some time, as i would at home.
I tried pushing all of them as hard as i could in bass, and all of them could handle more than myself. I was surprised that something in the 1-2k region of the Genelec bothered me a bit, there was a little "bite" while the others seemed more smooth. I don't know the reason for this (because on paper, the 8351 looks almost perfect), maybe something psychological, maybe i was tired at the time or maybe i am particularly sensitive to this, but mostly because of this i overall preferred the KH150 over the 8351 in this situation. If i wanted to buy a Genelec, i would take more time figuring out if this could be a subjective problem or not. In some tracks i think the Genelec was bit ahead and in others the Neumann, but to me, i did not have the feeling they were in a different class. They seemed pretty similar, and i guess the rest is up to individual preference or use case.
The D&D on the other hand seemed better to me than both, as far as i could tell in this scenario. It is of course also in a very different price category, so no surprise here.
I really cannot make a valid comparison or comment on the soundstage question, but as an owner of a KH310, i did not miss anything in the KH150. All of the 3 had a good stereo image, the D&D seemingly the most wide and overall "best" while 150 and 8351 seemed close to each other, but i guess if all of them would have been calibrated and/or in a different room, it could have been different. I did not hear any hint of "darkness" in the KH150, it sounded just right to me. But to be sure about that i guess the spinorama will be telling. I also did not find them lacking in the bass region. To my "wooden ears" the bass of the 150 sounded very deep, clean, loud and satisfying, even without a subwoofer. But this is hard to tell in an uncalibrated room.

A little follow up: In the meantime i bought the S&R issue and compared the spinorama of the 8351 and the KH150. I found it interesting that the first (upper) three lines look pretty similar, but the Genelec has more sound power in the treble than the Neumann

A little snippet from the quick and dirty overlay i made, showing the 1khz-20khz region: (low res, thicker lines = KH150; thin, dotted lines: 8351). Green and blue show early reflections -> pretty close; pink and red show sound power = Neumann recessed in comparison to Genelec.

1665242870085.png


I think this explains the difference i heard in treble. Personally i preferred the Neumann, but maybe you personally find the Genelec more correct. I just wanted to clarify what i meant.

Also here the comparison between KH120 (dotted) and KH150 (not dotted):
1665243637320.png

KH150 looks more smooth, but if the KH120 was too "dark" for you in a farfield scenario, i don´t know if you would feel the same with the KH150. I really don´t know if what i´ve done here is correct methodologically, maybe i am interpreting this wrong. If someone knows better i would be delighted to be corrected.
 

thewas

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Very nice analysis which matches also past experiences that comparable Neumanns are usually a bit narrower radiating them similar Genelecs and the main reason why some prefer the tonality and imaging of the first and some the second.
 

Pearljam5000

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Am I the only one whose bummed that the woofer is only 6.5 inch and not 7 inch like it was rumored to be at first?
 

AudioJester

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Am I the only one whose bummed that the woofer is only 6.5 inch and not 7 inch like it was rumored to be at first?

Bro, are you still consumed by this? It is what it is, if your still hung up by woofer size then this may not be for you.

I think you need to commission someone to build your own custom perfect speaker.
 

Pearljam5000

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Bro, are you still consumed by this? It is what it is, if your still hung up by woofer size then this may not be for you.

I think you need to commission someone to build your own custom perfect speaker.
I'm also still obsessing about it not being made from aluminum lol
 
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thewas

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The difference between “6.5 inch” and “7 inch” is generally just a wider mounting flange.
And often marketing, 6, 6.5 and 7 mean usually the same woofer size class which is between 5 and 8 inch.
 

Pearljam5000

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And often marketing, 6, 6.5 and 7 mean usually the same woofer size class which is between 5 and 8 inch.
They need to make an 8 inch KH180 or something that will be equal to the Genelec 8050
 

changer

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I assume you wouldn’t have the money or the will to pay for this speaker then.
I also heard that JBL is offering a highly acclaimed 8-inch woofer 2-way studio monitor, but you probably know this ...

??
 

thewas

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They need to make an 8 inch KH180 or something that will be equal to the Genelec 8050
As told to you several times before just size doesn't tell much, in the end only measurements (max SPL curves) matter.

I haven't seen such a measurement of the current 8050B but of the 8050A and the smaller KH150 performs very similarly in the bass region at 3% THD:

Genelec-8050A-Maximaler-Pegel.jpg

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitor-genelec-8050a-im-test/

Maximum_SPL_at_1_m.svg

Source: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-150#technical-data

The Neumann tweeter is actually even quite more SPL capable.

So why should they compromise their better vertical directivity then, just to make few buyers happy who just compare loudspeakers by the size?
 

jumper981

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As promised, my measurements in room of my KH150:
(Measured with bad Behringher BCM mic, i'll get new equipment soon)
First Measure KH150.PNG

Obviously my room have some problems, was a quick and dirty measure and positioning.
As soon as i get better equipment i'll update with better measurements and proper positioning.

SUBJECTIVE PART:
Overall they are really really impressive.
Bass goes down 30/31Hz at -3, so perfect for me.
What really surprised me it's the imaging; is like having a headphone, really really sharp (and i think much better than KH310 listened in a demo room)
Transients are superb.
Overall i think it's one of the best speakers I ever heard.
I thought they was good (as listened together in the demo room with 310), but not nearly as this.
 

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jumper981

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How are your liking your sound
Is there enough bass without a sub?
Thanks
Much more than enough for me, i had to remove from the back -2 of bass and -2 of low mid (already in my measurements).
I have never trigged the limiter and they go much more loud as i can physically support.
Updated original post with my SUBJECTIVE observations.
 

DJBonoBobo

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As promised, my measurements in room of my KH150:
(Measured with bad Behringher BCM mic, i'll get new equipment soon)
View attachment 236640
Obviously my room have some problems, was a quick and dirty measure and positioning.
As soon as i get better equipment i'll update with better measurements and proper positioning.

SUBJECTIVE PART:
Overall they are really really impressive.
Bass goes down 30/31Hz at -3, so perfect for me.
What really surprised me it's the imaging; is like having a headphone, really really sharp (and i think much better than KH310 listened in a demo room)
Transients are superb.
Overall i think it's one of the best speakers I ever heard.
I thought they was good (as listened together in the demo room with 310), but not nearly as this.
Thank you!
Just as a suggestion for improvement: better use a range of 50dB for the graph (i.e. 60-110dB) and perhaps var smooting, that makes your graph easier to compare with others. Do you intend using the MA 1 microphone?
 

jumper981

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Thank you!
Just as a suggestion for improvement: better use a range of 50dB for the graph (i.e. 60-110dB) and perhaps var smooting, that makes your graph easier to compare with others. Do you intend using the MA 1 microphone?
Thanks!
I’ll post here the REW file, unfortunately I’m not really super using REW.
I actually intend to use the Neumann MA-1 correction, so yes.
For sure I need to study better my room acoustics and correct some things, also with just REW for the moment.
EDIT 50db step
 

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DJBonoBobo

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Thanks!
I’ll post here the REW file, unfortunately I’m not really super using REW.
I actually intend to use the Neumann MA-1 correction, so yes.
For sure I need to study better my room acoustics and correct some things, also with just REW for the moment.
EDIT 50db step
Your spectrogram and ETC look very good for an untreated room. Your wardrobe and bed seem to be great bass absorbers (assuming this is still your situation: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-monitor-choice-neumann’s-are-driving-me-crazy.36109/#post-1265331).
 

jumper981

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Yes exactly what I thought, unfortunately have some SBIR in the lowest portion but I need to carefully check for their position.
Did you solve them with AVAA, or you think that in my case I could just doing it with a better placement and EQ?
Thanks
 

DJBonoBobo

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Yes exactly what I thought, unfortunately have some SBIR in the lowest portion but I need to carefully check for their position.
Did you solve them with AVAA, or you think that in my case I could just doing it with a better placement and EQ?
Thanks
In my case the AVAA more or less only solved the dip below 30Hz - that´s an SBIR from the back wall in a 5m room. But the 150s are limited there anyway, so no need in your case. Luckily because of your asymmetrical position the other speaker fills the dip around 60Hz a bit. I you can´t solve this to your satisfaction with different positions and the MA1, a subwoofer could potentially help much more than AVAAs. The 70-100Hz area is always difficult in such a room, i have still a dip there despite using 2 subs and 2 AVAAs...
 
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