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New Monitor choice: Neumann’s are driving me crazy!

jumper981

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Hi to all guys!

I’m actually becoming crazy choosing the right configuration for my room and which monitor would better fit.
I need to produce and mix music.
I read all the measurements here and I really like the Neumann’s monitors.
My old monitors were the A77X’s from Adam Audio, that I actually liked but obviously not for linearity and dynamics.
My room seems to not affect my frequency response too much(at least I don’t have comb filtering); I have some measurements of my older A77X done with REW.
Those new speakers will be positioned 5 to 10cm from the wall behind them.

My room is:
5m long x 4m wide x 2.8 tall

My listening position is around 110 to 140cm.

The room is untreated, and maximum SPL near 90dB.

My selection would be between those options:

2x KH80 DSP + 2x 750DSP

2x KH150 DSP (plus one future 750DSP probably) (that speakers aren’t available at the moment and not measured, but seems actually that Neumann speakers performs all similar so I would expect a “fuller” KH80)

2x KH310 + Dirac Live


Does someone listened those speakers together (except the KH150 obviously)?

My observations concluded that the KH80 + 2 Subs would be great but I don’t know if that ~4” Woofer(+small cabinet) actually reproduce a good upper bass (nearly 140 to 180Hz) and low mids; I really like the “in your face” presentation of kick drums (that actually a 310 would have).
The KH150 on the other hand would have actually a 6.5 woofer (that to me result a good “sweet spot”) but here costs to me exactly what I pay for the 310 (if the price is the ~1600€ MSRP)
The KH310 are fantastic speakers but they are actually a bit “old” at the moment, so something “future-proof” is preferred.

After all of those descriptions, which combination/speaker would you choose?

Many thanks in advance to all and hope that this post actually could help someone in my same situation.
 
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DjBonoBobo

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Hello again!

i have a few quesitons first:
  • Could you post a picture and/or a sketch of your listing situation?
  • Is the listening position "fixed" or could it be possible to set it a bit more into the room?
  • Is there a special reason your room is untreated or did you consider adding some treatment?
  • Could you post the measurements of your listening position with your old speakers?
  • Did you consider the KH120 + KH750, too?
  • Is there a possibilty you might want to have multichannel at some point?
  • Do you have Dirac Live already?
And some of my personal experiences with a KH310 and room treatment in a smallish room (smaller/worse than yours - so i´d expect you have less room related problems), i case you are interested:



BTW, my current room is also 5m long (but only 3m wide), and at the moment the KH310 are ca. 170cm apart from another and distance to my ears is 150cm. That works fine, i guess - still working on it.
 
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radix

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I use 2x KH80 + 1x KH750 in my office room, which is about 3m x 5m. My listening distance is around 50-75 cm. I really like the sound and I do not notice a problem with bass. When I calibrated with the Neumann mic and software, it came out pretty well.

I've moved to a new house, and I have not re-calibrated yet, so I do not have current graphs. If I can find the mic in all the boxes, I can post the results.
 
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jumper981

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Many thanks @DjBonoBobo for your quick answer.

Room2.PNG


That's a quick sketch of my room, i'll search a good photo of it, and post here as soon as i found it.
The listening position is not fixed and could be in between 110 and 150 cm depending of the speaker choice.
I would consider small treatment (as this is actually my bedroom).
I actually prefer the KH80 as from 4 to 5 it's similar i think.
Absolutely not a multichannel (if you were pointing me to a 5.1 and so on, only stereo), but multi speaker arrangement for sure, so 2 speakers and 2 subs.
I tried Dirac Live at my old work but i need to buy a copy for me.
i'll absolutely check those readings now!
Measures of my old A77Xs attached.


Really, again, many many thanks for your support.
 

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jumper981

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I use 2x KH80 + 1x KH750 in my office room, which is about 3m x 5m. My listening distance is around 50-75 cm. I really like the sound and I do not notice a problem with bass. When I calibrated with the Neumann mic and software, it came out pretty well.

I've moved to a new house, and I have not re-calibrated yet, so I do not have current graphs. If I can find the mic in all the boxes, I can post the results.

Many thanks @radix, unfortunately i have a slightly higher listening distance, but any result you could find would be helpful.
 

Pearljam5000

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Hi to all guys!

I’m actually becoming crazy choosing the right configuration for my room and which monitor would better fit.
I need to produce and mix music.
I read all the measurements here and I really like the Neumann’s monitors.
My old monitors were the A77X’s from Adam Audio, that I actually liked but obviously not for linearity and dynamics.
My room seems to not affect my frequency response too much(at least I don’t have comb filtering); I have some measurements of my older A77X done with REW.
Those new speakers will be positioned 5 to 10cm from the wall behind them.

My room is:
5m long x 4m wide x 2.8 tall

My listening position is around 110 to 140cm.

The room is untreated, and maximum SPL near 90dB.

My selection would be between those options:

2x KH80 DSP + 2x 750DSP

2x KH150 DSP (plus one future 750DSP probably) (that speakers aren’t available at the moment and not measured, but seems actually that Neumann speakers performs all similar so I would expect a “fuller” KH80)

2x KH310 + Dirac Live


Does someone listened those speakers together (except the KH150 obviously)?

My observations concluded that the KH80 + 2 Subs would be great but I don’t know if that ~4” Woofer(+small cabinet) actually reproduce a good upper bass (nearly 140 to 180Hz) and low mids; I really like the “in your face” presentation of kick drums (that actually a 310 would have).
The KH150 on the other hand would have actually a 7 woofer (that to me result a good “sweet spot”) but here costs to me exactly what I pay for the 310 (if the price is the ~1600€ MSRP)
The KH310 are fantastic speakers but they are actually a bit “old” at the moment, so something “future-proof” is preferred.

After all of those descriptions, which combination/speaker would you choose?

Many thanks in advance to all and hope that this post actually could help someone in my same situation.
KH150 are 6.5 inch not 7
 

DjBonoBobo

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Measures of my old A77Xs attached.
What are those measurements? There is one called "first" (green) and another "rearranged" (red), but they look very different. What did you change?
They look as if you measured L+R at the same time - so highs and mids seem to be messed up because of that (at least the red one). It is better to measure L/R seperately.

1659135494275.png


But at least the red one looks good in bass to me - no big dips, only those peaks between 90-200 Hz. To me, this indicates you probably don´t need a subwoofer as badly as in my own example (i myself need it mostly to fill the dip between 70-100Hz, but you don´t have this problem).

Also, the spectrogram and the ETC graph are looking ok/good to me, so probably you really don´t need room treatment.

When i see the picture i think
a) the KH310 could work and
b) the KH80 would look tiny in comparison.

So, if i where you i would consider the following:
  • The KH80 + KH750 (+MA1) could work, but would look very small in your setup and also reach their limits pretty soon. So you would have maybe too little headroom to be comfortable. If you count in the psychological factor i think i would not be ideal for you. Also, maybe you want to move to a different room someday. I have my KH310 for 9 years now and moved twice with them since.
  • KH120 + KH750 (+MA1) are IMHO an alternative to consider with more headroom. I never tried the KH120 with the KH750, although i own them.
  • KH310 could work without a sub, but it is sad to miss the opportunity to use the MA1. The good thing about this option is, that you know you´ll have a really nice premium 3-way and you can upgrade later with 1 or 2 KH750. In my experience the MA1 gives better results than Dirac with Neumann speakers. Make sure to try Dirac before you buy. I also own a Dirac licence, but don´t use it anymore. And when i used it, i used it for a little bass correction only - you could do this without Dirac. In your case though, because you don´t have a symmetrical room layout, it is possible that Dirac will help you getting a better stereo image (similar to the MA1).
  • KH150 +MA1 could possibly be the sweet spot for you, maybe even without a sub, if they are as good as everyone expects them to be. And maybe you could add a sub later. In the KH150 thread someone wrote that they liked the KH310 better than the KH150 in direct comparison, but i already read somewhere the opposite.
None of those options will be "wrong", i guess. They are all good speakers.
 
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jumper981

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What are those measurements? There is one called "first" (green) and another "rearranged" (red), but they look very different. What did you change?
They look as if you measured L+R at the same time - so highs and mids seem to be messed up because of that (at least the red one). It is better to measure L/R seperately.

View attachment 221181

But at least the red one looks good in bass to me - no big dips, only those peaks between 90-200 Hz. To me, this indicates you probably don´t need a subwoofer as badly as in my own example (i myself need it mostly to fill the dip between 70-100Hz, but you don´t have this problem).

Also, the spectrogram and the ETC graph are looking ok/good to me, so probably you really don´t need room treatment.

When i see the picture i think
a) the KH310 could work and
b) the KH80 would look tiny in comparison.

So, if i where you i would consider the following:
  • The KH80 + KH750 (+MA1) could work, but would look very small in your setup and also reach their limits pretty soon. So you would have maybe too little headroom to be comfortable. If you count in the psychological factor i think i would not be ideal for you. Also, maybe you want to move to a different room someday. I have my KH310 for 9 years now and moved twice with them since.
  • KH120 + KH750 (+MA1) are IMHO an alternative to consider with more headroom. I never tried the KH120 with the KH750, although i own them.
  • KH310 could work without a sub, but it is sad to miss the opportunity to use the MA1. The good thing about this option is, that you know you´ll have a really nice premium 3-way and you can upgrade later with 1 or 2 KH750. In my experience the MA1 gives better results than Dirac with Neumann speakers. Make sure to try Dirac before you buy. I also own a Dirac licence, but don´t use it anymore. And when i used it, i used it for a little bass correction only - you could do this without Dirac. In your case though, because you don´t have a symmetrical room layout, it is possible that Dirac will help you getting a better stereo image (similar to the MA1).
  • KH150 +MA1 could possibly be the sweet spot for you, maybe even without a sub, if they are as good as everyone expects them to be. And maybe you could add a sub later. In the KH150 thread someone wrote that they liked the KH310 better than the KH150 in direct comparison, but i already read somewhere the opposite.
None of those options will be "wrong", i guess. They are all good speakers.

Unfortunately those measurements were done around 2 years ago and I actually don’t remember which one is exactly the configuration today, but for sure I have bass now and I also think that I have slightly more linearity. (I was so stupid actually to not measure them again before sell)

You really hit my problem and described perfect which one would better fit here.
Actually upgrading to MA-1 was something that for sure should be done in the near future.
My options are now reduced to 150 and 310.
Unfortunately price are rising quickly for KH310 (from 1790€ to 2089€) and I actually should buy fast if I want to pay 1790 but the kh150 really intrigued me.
 
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DjBonoBobo

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Unfortunately those measurements were done around 2 years ago and I actually don’t remember which one is exactly the configuration today, but for sure I have bass now and I also think that I have slightly more linearity. (I was so stupid actually to not measure them again before sell)

You really hit my problem and described perfect which one would better fit here.
Actually upgrading to MA-1 was something that for sure should be done in the near future.
My options are now reduced to 150 and 310.
Unfortunately price are rising quickly for KH310 (from 1790€ to 2089€) and I actually should buy fast if I want to pay 1790 but the kh150 really intrigued me.

As far as we know, this is how the KH310 and KH150 probably compare:

KH310KH150 - most of it with a questionmark
2089 EURaround 1600 EUR?
34Hz39Hz?
8 inch woofer6.5 inch woofer
purely analogue, DSP features only with KH750DSP features, digital input, MA-1 compatibility
probably more max SPLprobably less max SPL?
special feature: famous mid-dome, asymmetrical designsymmetrical design
old modelbrand new model
probably less even directivitypossibly more even directivity?
sealedbass reflex

So you could try and decide which one fits your needs better or maybe wait until the KH150 and some measurements are out.

Edit: I would say, on paper, the KH150 looks like it could be sufficient for you, it will be considerably cheaper and you have the chance to get the MA1 from start (do you already havae an interface with 48V phantom power?). Open questions are, will you need the extra capabilities of the KH310 in the future and does the KH310 have something magical the KH150 does not have... ;-)
 
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jumper981

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Many thanks @DjBonoBobo you really are helping me.

The KH150 DSP would be really good speakers from what we can expect and could be absolutely sufficient for my needs.
On the other hand, I could buy now the 310 for 1790 each one, directly compared to the near 1600 of the KH150 and that's what actually stops me from picking them over the 310.
If they would at least gived us a better price point instead of breaking it's entire line prices.

About the directivity, which option would you favor between those ( or actually any speaker) as I still don't get the directivity parameter.
Would be better a speaker with a more focused directivity or a better dispersion? Which one of those two(2 way vs 3 way asym) would you put in those categories?
Scuse me for my ignorance about the directivity.
I pretty much like a focused sound overall and something with super-controlled imaging (a good closed headphone would probably be a good representation of this type of sound)
 

Digby

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Given the way things are going with inflation/economy/shortages, I would personally buy whatever it is you need NOW. The KH150 is slated to be 1600, but will it be that price for sure, who can say?
 

DjBonoBobo

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Many thanks @DjBonoBobo you really are helping me.

The KH150 DSP would be really good speakers from what we can expect and could be absolutely sufficient for my needs.
On the other hand, I could buy now the 310 for 1790 each one, directly compared to the near 1600 of the KH150 and that's what actually stops me from picking them over the 310.
If they would at least gived us a better price point instead of breaking it's entire line prices.

About the directivity, which option would you favor between those ( or actually any speaker) as I still don't get the directivity parameter.
Would be better a speaker with a more focused directivity or a better dispersion? Which one of those two(2 way vs 3 way asym) would you put in those categories?
Scuse me for my ignorance about the directivity.
I pretty much like a focused sound overall and something with super-controlled imaging (a good closed headphone would probably be a good representation of this type of sound)

Directivity - smoother is better, ideally it would be one horizontal rectangular "red" block. The smaller the speaker/woofer, the later the bass becomes more direct - you can see that the red area of the KH80 is more wide for longer than the bigger models. That means, the smaller, the more of the "higher" bass is directed to the front wall and cause SBIR/reflections there.
If you compare the current models, they are all good, but the KH310 has a "bump" in the 1000Hz region. AFAIK this is because of it´s special (very compact) design. I expect the KH150 more like the KH120, but maybe even a bit better. This is why i am guessing the KH150 will have a bit better directivity than the KH310. This means, it could be that you will maybe have less problems positioning the KH150 in your room, especially since you don´t have treatment. But nobody knows beforehand, how much difference this will make in your room, if any.
The height of the "red" bar is pretty similar (higher = wider dispersion), so i don´t expect big differences regarding what you wrote about more or less "focused" sound.

1659177195928.png
1659177309409.png
1659177239942.png


Best would be to try for yourself. But as i wrote, they are all good and you can´t do much "wrong". I think @Digby has a valid point, too.
 

DjBonoBobo

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The option KH120+750+MA1 could also be sufficient for you, but has the advantage of getting even deeper than KH150, being even cheaper, being available now and still getting you all the modern DSP features.
Also you have the option to upgrade some day and sell the KH120, but you don't need an intermediate solution like Dirac. So in comparison probably less risky financially.
 
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jumper981

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Many thanks @DjBonoBobo.
All is finally clear to me now.

What you think about saving moneys for a Genelec 8341?
I see the measurements of this speaker and seems actually something perfect, but absolutely pricey.
Would it make all this difference after all? We are talking about all exceptionally good speakers in the end.

Regarding the option to buy right now, i don't actually need in the immediate time as I'm using a pair of LCD-XC at the moment.
Regarding instead of inflation, I unfortunately don't have the preparation to really do accurate previsions about it.
Those speakers will absolutely be bought before september in either case.

I think i'll wait the KH150 to be tested or see some accurate measurments over Neumann.

EDIT:
Was typing when you added the KH120 info.
I think they will be overall too similar to a KH80 (and actually the KH120 seems a better performer), would't they?
I absolutely check all the monitors right now, and i'm also considering all of those.

EDIT 2:
Seems also that we could potentially have KH120 II in the future, so I might consider to check what Neumann will offer in the near future.
 
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DjBonoBobo

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I dont think the KH150 will be available "before september", but i don't know.

Regarding Genelec: I have never heard a Genelec speaker in my life, but on paper they are about as good as it gets in this class. I think Neumanns have the better value for the money, and should be good enough for most cases, but the Genelecs seem to be the best you can buy. If it's worth for you, i don't know.
 

DjBonoBobo

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EDIT:
Was typing when you added the KH120 info.
I think they will be overall too similar to a KH80 (and actually the KH120 seems a better performer), would't they?
The KH120 has much more headroom than the KH80. Together with a KH750 i don't think you'll have to worry about SPL in your room and up to 150cm.
 

AdamG247

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Buy once cry once. You know how many times I violated this rule only to regret that decision??? All the money and time I wasted on compromising. If you are a what if thinker, and suffer slightly from buyers remorse or second guessing your choices. Anywho, that’s my two cents of advice. Good luck with your decision and project.
 
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jumper981

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Buy once cry once. You know how many times I violated this rule only to regret that decision??? All the money and time I wasted on compromising. If you are a what if thinker, and suffer slightly from buyers remorse or second guessing your choices. Anywho, that’s my two cents of advice. Good luck with your decision and project.

I’m actually something like, but I don’t regret, I just want to buy something that will hold it’s value better than other speakers so I could change them back (depending on needs) spending something less.
 

Recluse-Animator

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For near field I would suggest coaxial speakers, but if the choice is between these three then get the KH310 and save up to buy subs later.
The KH310 has a dedicated mid range driver and can go lower so it's easier to integrate with subs.
Instead of the 750DSP get something with better price performance from example SVS, Arendal sound, XTZ, Rythmik or RSL speakers.
For example you can get three RSL speedwoofer 10s MkII for the price of one 750DSP.
 
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