Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[DearSX]

Looks like even most bass heavy songs only go down to about 35hz like said @teashea with AWOL Nation's Sail being an exception and going down to 24hz! So 35hz clean seems like a good target all around.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwGX-orEFUJNr_OEqSbitwYD02tWhtxB7

 

[teashea]

The thing is that even if the monitors used are not fully correct measuring-wise but the mixing engineer finds them to sound right with well-known reference tracks, he still will be able to make correct mixing decisions with the target of those reference tracks. But if he instead uses some other monitors he doesn't like the sound of, even if they are considered objectively better, he will most likely overcompensate for the things he doesn't like with the sound. He could still use the reference tracks to get in the ballpark of correct, but it's a way better starting point to like how the reference tracks sound on his monitors.

If a professional mixing engineer will be able to work for 8-10 hours a day, it would be a really bad choice of studio monitors if he gets listening fatigue in an hour or two, no matter if the monitors he uses are considered objectively great or not.

Bob Clearmountain is considered a great mixing engineer who's in the mixing world and is also famous for using Yamaha NS-10s, do you think his mixes would have been significantly better if he had used Genelec or Neumann monitors instead? The same goes for all other great mixing engineers out there who are used to completely different sounding monitors of all kinds, and of all types of brands which are all measuring differently from each other. Do you really think their mixes would have been significantly better if they had chosen other studio monitors with objectively better measurements than the ones they are used to and have already given great and proven results?

I don't think so, I think the use of (for the mixing engineer) well-known pair of studio monitors, using well-known reference tracks that sounds right to him on those speakers, and mixing in a familiar studio room will most likely give the best result.

But that is a contorted, painful process which is no longer necessary. How much more straight forward it is to just use good monitors to begin with.

 

[teashea]

Hello everyone

I just registered and I couldn't help answering in this thread because a few weeks ago I was able to compare these Neumann KH120 II with my beloved Genelec 8340 at home.
I finally returned the neumanns. They sounded pretty good, and amazing bass for their size, but I was missing the sparkle and texture of the sound of my genelecs.
Its features are impressive, especially considering its size, but I liked the way the 8340 sounded better and more powerful.

A few months ago I was also able to compare the 8340 with the Adam S2V and something similar happened to me, although the KH120 II sweeps the S2V in quality/price ratio.

Greetings

That sparkle and texture = distortion and a non-flat frequency response. It is your preference in coloration, not the quality of speakers that results in your decision. Which is perfectly fine.

 

[DearSX]

Ok, I think I'm going to trade in my KH 120 ii for the KH150s. After owning the KH120ii I think they are very good and accurate, with great bass but I do want at least a little more bass for R&B and Hip Hop music, and I think compared to spending $10k on the KH 420, I would be fine with the KH150 95% of the time and save over $6500 for something else, or at least till KH 420 ii come out but I will listen to the KH120 a little longer before making up my mind fully.

 

[goat76]

But that is a contorted, painful process which is no longer necessary. How much more straight forward it is to just use good monitors to begin with.

Don't know about that, it doesn't seem to be a very painful process for all those good mixing engineers out there with a proven track record of putting out good mixes, even if not all of them are using what you would call good monitors.

 

[Infinit0]

Ok, I think I'm going to trade in my KH 120 ii for the KH150s. After owning the KH120ii I think they are very good and accurate, with great bass but I do want at least a little more bass for R&B and Hip Hop music, and I think compared to spending $10k on the KH 420, I would be fine with the KH150 95% of the time and save over $6500 for something else, or at least till KH 420 ii come out but I will listen to the KH120 a little longer before making up my mind fully.

Why dont you add a KH750 and MA1 with that moeny instead and keep the KH120II?
Unless you are listening the KH120II at more than 1.8m/2meters

 

[IamJF]

You forget a small bass-mid driver working its guts out below 100Hz is going to add to the midrange distortion almost certainly and I believe the port output will be considerable as well. One reason I dislike tiny 'midwoofer' drivers held flat to 50Hz or below no matter how 'loud' they can go. Forgive me here, but I still feel you can NEVER do better than a larger good quality bass driver working less hard and I feel this applies to smaller rooms as well. I'm not a fan of subs either (all those extra boxes to trip over ) BUT, I can definitely see the point in a pair of KH120's being properly integrated with a sub, removing the ports and bass-mid drivers of all that hard work and so allowing less distortion in the midrange with I believe audible benefits! A win-win situation if you can do this!

There was a lot of development in the last 10 years in terms of small drivers. Started with Klippel getting standard for manufacturers, all the development with micro speakers and now we have chassis like Purify which pushes the boundary of what low frequency drivers can do.
So you have the option of getting way more clean low frequencies out of smaller drivers as you belive cuase it still feels unreal. It's just not cheap if you buy Purify ;-)
The new Neumann lf drivers are VERY good in that regard also and a noticeable step forward to the previous model. But no - it's not a 12" and never will be.

 

[DearSX]

Why dont you add a KH750 and MA1 with that moeny instead and keep the KH120II?
Unless you are listening the KH120II at more than 1.8m/2meters

I don't trust adding a sub woofer as well as just having a speaker that does it all. I do have an SVS Micro 3000 sub with some DSP settings I could try, but I have not gotten good response out if yet. I have my Polk R700 with Dual 8"s and another 3-way with 10" woofer and all of them produce too much bass in my area. Maybe I just need to get things EQ-ed a bit, whish is my next step. I will take a look at the MA1 too. I may just add an KH750 to the KH 150 also as needed. So many choices and options! Thanks for the idea.

 

[DearSX]

There was a lot of development in the last 10 years in terms of small drivers. Started with Klippel getting standard for manufacturers, all the development with micro speakers and now we have chassis like Purify which pushes the boundary of what low frequency drivers can do.
So you have the option of getting way more clean low frequencies out of smaller drivers as you belive cuase it still feels unreal. It's just not cheap if you buy Purify ;-)
The new Neumann lf drivers are VERY good in that regard also and a noticeable step forward to the previous model. But no - it's not a 12" and never will be.

I bought SB Acoustics Satori 6.5 inch drivers which were state of the art about 10 years ago with similar response, I guess now that is a lot more common, Nice! I still have them and they sound nice, I need to get around to finishing my speaker and adding some EQ for them, That is an years long project with KH 120ii its just plug and play.

SBA Satori mids:

Jan 2013: "The 7" Satori probably has the best performing motor in the business, as shown by the class leading harmonic distortion plots." $150/driver

 

[RobL]

That sparkle and texture = distortion and a non-flat frequency response. It is your preference in coloration, not the quality of speakers that results in your decision. Which is perfectly fine.

Which “unflat” area in the 8340’s FR is the culprit do you think?

Any differences in sound between those two monitors is most likely dispersion related, not “non-flat frequency response” or “distortion”. We’re talking about monitors from two of the most competent companies in the biz.

 

[goat76]

With the earlier talk of Bob Clearmountain, I stumbled upon this video of one of his studios he calls "The Garage Studio". Besides his beloved NS-10s on the console, they also have a full-blown Atmos system of Neumann speakers.

But for the home studio that he mostly uses for mixing, most of the speakers in that Atmos system seem to be from Dynaudio. And of course, some small and rare Yamaha monitors that are also out of production like the NS-10s.

 

[teashea]

Ok, I think I'm going to trade in my KH 120 ii for the KH150s. After owning the KH120ii I think they are very good and accurate, with great bass but I do want at least a little more bass for R&B and Hip Hop music, and I think compared to spending $10k on the KH 420, I would be fine with the KH150 95% of the time and save over $6500 for something else, or at least till KH 420 ii come out but I will listen to the KH120 a little longer before making up my mind fully.

Just remember the KH 150's do not give you more bass. They give you slightly lower extention of bass.

The indication is that the new 420 will be here in four or five years.

 

[teashea]

I need someone to talk me down. Until I started reading this topic, I was content with my KH 120A's paired with a KH 750. But now....... I am seriously considering purchasing another pair of KH 120 II's to use with the KH 750.

Is there some kind of 800 help line? (And I don't mean Sweetwater's number)

 

[teashea]

Which “unflat” area in the 8340’s FR is the culprit do you think?
View attachment 300471
Any differences in sound between those two monitors is most likely dispersion related, not “non-flat frequency response” or “distortion”. We’re talking about monitors from two of the most competent companies in the biz.

What do you think sparkle and texture are? Either they are physical realities or they are not.

 

[mj30250]

Just remember the KH 150's do not give you more bass. They give you slightly lower extention of bass.

Yes, but the KH 150s can give you more bass by virtue of additional headroom if you choose to dial in a low frequency boost. Of course, you can EQ the 120 IIs in a similar fashion, they'll just run out of headroom faster.

 

[DearSX]

Just remember the KH 150's do not give you more bass. They give you slightly lower extention of bass.

The indication is that the new 420 will be here in four or five years.

Thanks, yes, I'm looking for more extension. Now I'm more curious about the KH 310 Ii for even more extension. I may just hold and enjoy my other speakers this year. Got up to $8k WAF.

 

[RobL]

What do you think sparkle and texture are? Either they are physical realities or they are not.

Quite probably they very real and are the result of lateral reflection envelopment and greater high frequency sound power from the wider dispersion of the Genelec.

 

[teashea]

Yes, but the KH 150s can give you more bass by virtue of additional headroom if you choose to dial in a low frequency boost. Of course, you can EQ the 120 IIs in a similar fashion, they'll just run out of headroom faster.

But why spend that kind of money for monitors that Neumann has spent so much effort on to make the frequency response flat. If you don't want flat frequency response you can purchase so many other speakers for less money.

 

[mj30250]

But why spend that kind of money for monitors that Neumann has spent so much effort on to make the frequency response flat. If you don't want flat frequency response you can purchase so many other speakers for less money.

Even the flattest possible anechoic bass response will be obliterated by nearly any actual room that isn't a highly-treated studio-type space. And even in such a space, the speakers will almost certainly require some level of EQ to get the bass truly flat in-room. Neumanns are flat where it counts, with well-controlled directivity and class-leading distortion. The larger ones offer reasonable headroom to help address room modes via EQ, and/or to dial in a bass boost to taste (which is certainly fine, and what most people prefer). That's what you're paying for.

 

[holdingpants01]

But for the home studio that he mostly uses for mixing, most of the speakers in that Atmos system seem to be from Dynaudio. And of course, some small and rare Yamaha monitors that are also out of production like the NS-10s.

Those are Yamaha MSP7 Studio, neither rare nor small. The MSP series was very good and neutral sounding, but quite old school, so lacked low end and needed to be used with a sub for anything resembling full range monitoring