NAD M33 Streaming Amplifier Review

[pogo]

Already done. Appreciate everyone's suggestions.

Has there been a response from NAD in the meantime?

 

[SIY]

Has there been a response from NAD in the meantime?

Review will be out in the next month or two.

 

[fcracer]

Yes you are correct. Correct. It's a trade off on performance vs. cost and time. They have to hit a price point and need to hit a delivery schedule, and have a budget to stick to.

If they continue to develop this product they will apply what they learned from the M33 but didn't have the time or resources to incorporate, into the next revision of the device. Maybe it will be called the iphone 3GS.

I agree with all your points. I also wish that NAD would open a direct to customer model for their Masters series. This would provide two benefits to NAD and consumers:

1. Provide more profit margin so NAD can make more money and also use higher quality components.
2. Provide a higher level of service than you get from buying the classic line.

They can keep their retail network in place but add a channel for the Masters series for those that would rather purchase direct from NAD. As much as I’d love to see a local Hi-Fi retailer survive, the reality is that I’ve never had a great experience with any of them; I’d prefer the money go the manufacturer, where the benefits may accrue to them and the consumer.

Perhaps with Bluesound, NAD has a wide enough reach to open brand stores in key centres for people that like to touch and feel a product before buying it.

 

[NYfan2]

I agree with all your points. I also wish that NAD would open a direct to customer model for their Masters series. This would provide two benefits to NAD and consumers:

1. Provide more profit margin so NAD can make more money and also use higher quality components.
2. Provide a higher level of service than you get from buying the classic line.

They can keep their retail network in place but add a channel for the Masters series for those that would rather purchase direct from NAD. As much as I’d love to see a local Hi-Fi retailer survive, the reality is that I’ve never had a great experience with any of them; I’d prefer the money go the manufacturer, where the benefits may accrue to them and the consumer.

Perhaps with Bluesound, NAD has a wide enough reach to open brand stores in key centres for people that like to touch and feel a product before buying it.

I don't think that will ever happen (direct customer model) at least not overhere (The Netherlands) I'm always suprised how many audio retailers are dealer for NAD from really high-end shops till more main stream audio shops they all sell NAD (and Dali but that's the same distributor). I don't think it is interesting for them to start a direct customer model.

Brand stores can be interesting because I think the NAD name is wellknown enough for that but the problem then is that NAD needs to offer complete systems for the customer, from the source tot the speaker and at the moment they don't offer that.

Although I love the concept of one device that can do all and the fact that the concept of the M33 is very good (Purifi amplifier, Bluesound streamer, HDMI ARC connection) for me the quality should be better then is delivered at the moment. Taking in consideration the sales numbers and the price of the M33 (€ 5500,-) there should have been more attention to the design.

 

[SIY]

Brand stores can be interesting because I think the NAD name is wellknown enough for that but the problem then is that NAD needs to offer complete systems for the customer, from the source tot the speaker and at the moment they don't offer that.

Basically, they do. Lenbrook (the parent company) owns NAD (source and amplification), Bluesound (control software), and PSB (speakers).

 

[pogo]

for me the quality should be better then is delivered at the moment.

What points do you have to complain about in terms of quality?

 

[Descartes]

Yes paying up to twice as much just to have a dealer in between the consumer and the manufacturer is an antiquated business model!

It’s one thing if the dealer has a show room, then install the equipment for you at least customers pay for service otherwise dealers are just moving boxes no better than big box retail business.

And then they wonder why Amazon is so popular! Monoprice also has been able to offer high quality products for much less money by selling direct!

 

[NYfan2]

What points do you have to complain about in terms of quality?

My main concern are the issues mentioned by other uses, the audible distortion in certain tracks, the subwoofer issues and the software glitches mentioned.

The M33 measures very good although it's not the best possible (stated by Armir in the review), I think that a company like NAD has the resources to design a unit that has the best specifications possible but for some reasons they chose not do that and that is a pity.

 

[pogo]

My main concern are the issues mentioned by other uses, the audible distortion in certain tracks, the subwoofer issues and the software glitches mentioned.

According to NAD, there will be a solution here, but the implementation is probably more complex than assumed.

The M33 measures very good although it's not the best possible (stated by Armir in the review), I think that a company like NAD has the resources to design a unit that has the best specifications possible but for some reasons they chose not do that and that is a pity.

From my point of view, the M33 plays at a very high level and I find it difficult to name a better chain right down to the speaker.
An AHB2, for example, would not work well on my loudspeaker because of the moderate damping factor, i.e. the bass range would sound spongy to me. If you operate the AHB2 in bridged mode, the damping factor would be halved again. Among other things, I miss such a measurement in the reviews that you can really hear well in the real world.

 

[SIY]

An AHB2, for example, would not work well on my loudspeaker because of the moderate damping factor, i.e. the bass range would sound spongy to me. If you operate the AHB2 in bridged mode, the damping factor would be halved again. Among other things, I miss such a measurement in the reviews that you can really hear well in the real world.

This is highly unlikely. It takes a lot of source impedance to cause audible bass damping effects. A damping factor of 350 (the AHB2 rating) means a source impedance of about 20 milliohms before you even connect your speaker cables. That's about a hundred times lower than anything that could plausibly make bass sound "spongy."

It's educational to use one of the many speaker CAD programs to see the effect of source impedance on bass.

 

[pogo]

This is highly unlikely. It takes a lot of source impedance to cause audible bass damping effects. A damping factor of 350 (the AHB2 rating) means a source impedance of about 20 milliohms before you even connect your speaker cables. That's about a hundred times lower than anything that could plausibly make bass sound "spongy."

Here is an extreme example that was also misinterpreted by the tester:
Uniti Nova vs M33

The Naim with its lower DF adds massive deflections in the low frequency range that do not correspond to the original input signal!
It's all a question of taste or whether you want to compensate for deficits in speakers.
I have had my speakers for 30 years and have connected a number of amplifiers to them. Amplifiers with a higher DF played more precisely in the bass range, which is even reflected in the spatial representation!

I also asked Benchmark several times whether the DF of 350 on the AHB2 is correct, without getting an answer.
Soundstagenetwork measured <300. I then asked the following questions:
Does the AHB2 have a series scattering with regard to the damping factor (see Soundstagenetwork re-measurement, which is below the spec) !?
However, at low levels, most amplifier designs have a damping factor that is 5-10 times lower. Can you provide any DF data regarding different levels?
The internal resistance of an amplifier is also essentially dependent on the circuitry temperature and the load. Do you have any further data on this?
What would the answers look like in bridged mode too?

I can only say that the M33 does a great job on potent speakers. Amplifiers with a moderate DF make my bass range spongy.
You should just have heard the M33.

 

[SIY]

Here is an extreme example that was also misinterpreted by the tester:
Uniti Nova vs M33

The Naim with its lower DF adds massive deflections in the low frequency range that do not correspond to the original input signal!
It's all a question of taste or whether you want to compensate for deficits in speakers.
I have had my speakers for 30 years and have connected a number of amplifiers to them. Amplifiers with a higher DF played more precisely in the bass range, which is even reflected in the spatial representation!

I also asked Benchmark several times whether the DF of 350 on the AHB2 is correct, without getting an answer.
Soundstagenetwork measured <300. I then asked the following questions:
Does the AHB2 have a series scattering with regard to the damping factor (see Soundstagenetwork re-measurement, which is below the spec) !?
However, at low levels, most amplifier designs have a damping factor that is 5-10 times lower. Can you provide any DF data regarding different levels?
The internal resistance of an amplifier is also essentially dependent on the circuitry temperature and the load. Do you have any further data on this?
What would the answers look like in bridged mode too?

I can only say that the M33 does a great job on potent speakers. Amplifiers with a moderate DF make my bass range spongy.
You should just have heard the M33.

This still makes zero technical sense. And no data.

 

[pogo]

DB loss is not the real problem, but the undesired higher swing out amplitude, i.e. the input signal is not properly followed, which leads to a washed-out bass range with complex music signals.

Above you can see a DF of 0.5. Below one of 200 at 85Hz.

You can see that a lower damping factor slows down the mechanical movement of the chassis more poorly, resulting in a more washed-out bass range. And an even higher damping factor would probably come even closer to the ideal.

 

[SIY]

Above you can see a DF of 0.5. Below one of 200 at 85Hz.

So totally irrelevant to your extraordinary claim. Come back when you have actual data.

 

[pogo]

I do not think so. This example only shows the simplified different result with a test stimuli at a single frequency. A music signal has a more complex structure and which undesirable deflections can result from it can be easily heard depending on the setup.

Benchmark AHB2, PSAudio M1200 and NAD C298 are compared by Kal Rubinson.

@Kal Rubinson
Are the following things also taken into account in your upcoming comparison test?:
- heavy coned, big magnet, and low impedance speaker
- speaker cable length

 

[SIY]

I do not think so. This example only shows the simplified different result with a test stimuli at a single frequency. A music signal has a more complex structure and which undesirable deflections can result from it can be easily heard depending on the setup.

So you also don't understand the illustration you put up. Or the Fourier theorem.

Again, run any of the speaker CAD programs and look at the differences with the source impedances you're trying to handwave here. More handwaving is not getting you any closer to understanding.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

@Kal Rubinson
Are the following things also taken into account in your upcoming comparison test?:
- heavy coned, big magnet, and low impedance speaker
- speaker cable length

Used same speakers and same cables.

 

[Descartes]

Their warranty is 2 years in the US and 5 years in Europe! It makes no sense

 

[fcracer]

Their warranty is 2 years in the US and 5 years in Europe! It makes no sense

And one year in China Another reason for NAD to go direct to consumer. They can regain control of their brand.

 

[Descartes]

And one year in China Another reason for NAD to go direct to consumer. They can regain control of their brand.

It makes no sense!!