my first audiophile hifi setup

[Triliza]

Benchmark AHB2 must be great, but I think you would spend more that half of your budget on the amp only, it will be better if you spend that money for speakers and some room correction solution, there are much cheaper amps that will do the same job, or as other have already said if you go for active speakers you will not need an amp at all.

Terms like clarity and smoothness means different things to different people, if I understand correctly what you mean, for clarity actives like the genelecs/neumann may be a good solution, but imo they wouldn't be that forgiving and if you feed them music from bluetooth your experience with the music may not be that great. For smoothness, something like the Wharfedale Linton 85 Anniversary may be a good choice for you.

Also don't disregard bass, it is very important to your music enjoyment, the boomines you experienced may be related to speaker positioning/room modes and the music played.

 

[Nullqube]

How do you get the sourdough to be sour. I purchased some starter from SF which is used to make much of the sourdough bread in the area (my favorite) but mine still is not sour. Prefer to not add any alkaline ingredients to the mix (other than sour starter)

well happy to see u r intrested.

This video is one of my first sources.
Well it really depends on the mix u give to ur starter and the amount.
20% starter is the usual. And try to add near 10%-20% rye to ur starter .

 

[Nullqube]

Do you have any plans to expand the system in a multichannel for a home cinema at a latter time? Where are you based, US or Europe, for some speakers the availability and prices are vastly different.

No , don't want home cinema, just music

 

[Nullqube]

Just going to throw out the March Audio Sointuva, one of the best measuring passive speakers out there with state of the art drivers and some beautiful finish options. Need a powerful amp to drive it so I would recommend a Hypex to fit in your budget.

Also, amplifier brands and models really don't matter for sound quality. Pretty much any amp driven within its limits sounds the same as any other. Just purchases electronics based on their features, specs, appearance, quality, after sales support etc. Don't think that a Marantz will make your speakers sound completely different than a Denon for example, that's just silly nonsense that is reinforced by placebo.

I really have to disagree with u on this, I listend to polk with cambridge axr85 and with the marantz, the difference was distinct.

 

[voodooless]

I really have to disagree with u on this, I listend to polk with cambridge axr85 and with the marantz, the difference was distinct.

If you didn’t level match the amps to a fraction of a dB, all betts are off.

 

[Keith_W]

I really have to disagree with u on this, I listend to polk with cambridge axr85 and with the marantz, the difference was distinct.

Dorud, Nullqube. I have no doubt that you heard a difference between those two amps. I also regret the tone of some ASR members here who use words like "nonsense" and "audiophoolery" to denigrate people who disagree with them. However, they do have a point. There are TINY audible differences between amps at "normal" listening volume, and most audible differences is due to poor level matching when comparing amps. You will start to hear differences when you really start pushing the amps, listening at high volumes, and driving them to clipping. You shouldn't be doing this anyway, so all I will advise you about amps is: choose an amp with "adequate" power for your speakers and preferred listening volume. Fortunately in 2023, adequately powered amps are inexpensive. This wasn't the case when I started, when good quality high powered amps cost a lot of money.

What you should take away is this: while you can gain sound quality by choosing a "better" amp, what you gain is nowhere in the same ballpark as choosing better speakers and placing them properly. EVERYBODY agrees on this, even subjectivists on other audio forums. It is one of the few things where there is near universal agreement! It is not worth spending a lot of money on amps if you are starting out. Most of your money should go into speakers. And if you choose an active speaker, you don't have to worry about choosing an amp. Choose an active speaker with a digital input, and you won't have to worry about buying a DAC.

Your room sounds like it is pretty large (did you say 6x9 meters?) and sparsely furnished. You are going to suffer from a lot of reflections in that room. Too many reflections reduce clarity, destroys soundstage, and cause frequency response anomalies. Since you live in Iran, you can buy tapestries and hang them on the walls. They will work quite well to tame some of the reflections. And if you buy Genelecs, people will be too busy looking at your tapestries to notice those ugly things in the room

BTW, I am crazy about Persian rugs. They are already very expensive, but I suspect that prices will skyrocket because supply of cheap Persian labour will dry up if the situation in your country improves. If I had the money, I would grab as many as I can and hang them up on the walls because they are so beautiful and I just love the handmade intricacy of those things.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Nullqube take it easy! You expressed the wish to learn and that you have programming skills. There is no better platform to do it than PC.
Your room is big and it's good that there is not much further in it. You didn't told us where are you from but as budget is in $ I assume it's US. Which is good because great availability of equipment.
Do you own a half deacent audio system to experiment on?
For beginners try to find and read about DSP applications in audio processing, PEQ filters, RIF filters, how to use REW with UMIK-1 and EQ APO as it's free and capable software (REW and EQ APO). Learn what's loudness normalisation (EBU R128) and what's equal loudness normalisation (ISO 226 2003).
Learn what are room influences and importance of room acoustical treatment. Read about time domain and ISO 3382-1.
In other words read a lot and start with relatively good and cheap system with which you can experiment before spending a large amount of money on the one. I hope you also make sourdough Strudel as I like those.

 

[Doodski]

I really have to disagree with u on this, I listend to polk with cambridge axr85 and with the marantz, the difference was distinct.

As @Keith_W stated the amp makes a small difference until driving low low impedance speakers or at loud high power levels. If the amps' output signal is not level matched with either a dB meter or using a oscilloscope the louder sounding amp will sound better. As a example I sold home audio gear for 9 years and had the opportunity to compare at least several hundreds of quality made integrated amps, receivers, power amps with a switchbox and if level matched at a power output level within the limits of the amps they all sounded near identical. There where a couple that sounded off but they used STK power output ICs that are known to not be high current devices. So if you want to compare amps the test needs to be done properly so as not to deceive you with the louder amp. I also repaired electronics for 15 years and had the opportunity to purchase lots of nice gear at cost from wholesalers, importers and manufacturers and the result was that very few of the amps actually sounded different and the ones that did where exotic designs that where slightly colored in the sound output or where exceptionally good at driving difficult speakers.

 

[Triliza]

@Nullqube take it easy! You expressed the wish to learn and that you have programming skills. There is no better platform to do it than PC.
Your room is big and it's good that there is not much further in it. You didn't told us where are you from but as budget is in $ I assume it's US. Which is good because great availability of equipment.
Do you own a half deacent audio system to experiment on?
For beginners try to find and read about DSP applications in audio processing, PEQ filters, RIF filters, how to use REW with UMIK-1 and EQ APO as it's free and capable software (REW and EQ APO). Learn what's loudness normalisation (EBU R128) and what's equal loudness normalisation (ISO 226 2003).
Learn what are room influences and importance of room acoustical treatment. Read about time domain and ISO 3382-1.
In other words read a lot and start with relatively good and cheap system with which you can experiment before spending a large amount of money on the one. I hope you also make sourdough Strudel as I like those.

Also I live in lran and don't have the chance to test many option personally so I have to rely on specs and you guys opinion, and that's a very reason I opended this post.

I don't know what the prices for audio gear are in his country, @Nullqube what is the best price you got locally for R3?

 

[Nullqube]

Dorud, Nullqube. I have no doubt that you heard a difference between those two amps. I also regret the tone of some ASR members here who use words like "nonsense" and "audiophoolery" to denigrate people who disagree with them. However, they do have a point. There are TINY audible differences between amps at "normal" listening volume, and most audible differences is due to poor level matching when comparing amps. You will start to hear differences when you really start pushing the amps, listening at high volumes, and driving them to clipping. You shouldn't be doing this anyway, so all I will advise you about amps is: choose an amp with "adequate" power for your speakers and preferred listening volume. Fortunately in 2023, adequately powered amps are inexpensive. This wasn't the case when I started, when good quality high powered amps cost a lot of money.

What you should take away is this: while you can gain sound quality by choosing a "better" amp, what you gain is nowhere in the same ballpark as choosing better speakers and placing them properly. EVERYBODY agrees on this, even subjectivists on other audio forums. It is one of the few things where there is near universal agreement! It is not worth spending a lot of money on amps if you are starting out. Most of your money should go into speakers. And if you choose an active speaker, you don't have to worry about choosing an amp. Choose an active speaker with a digital input, and you won't have to worry about buying a DAC.

Your room sounds like it is pretty large (did you say 6x9 meters?) and sparsely furnished. You are going to suffer from a lot of reflections in that room. Too many reflections reduce clarity, destroys soundstage, and cause frequency response anomalies. Since you live in Iran, you can buy tapestries and hang them on the walls. They will work quite well to tame some of the reflections. And if you buy Genelecs, people will be too busy looking at your tapestries to notice those ugly things in the room

BTW, I am crazy about Persian rugs. They are already very expensive, but I suspect that prices will skyrocket because supply of cheap Persian labour will dry up if the situation in your country improves. If I had the money, I would grab as many as I can and hang them up on the walls because they are so beautiful and I just love the handmade intricacy of those things.

So enlighting, ok.
And for carpet and rug u can come over here the price is so different from there. It's much cheaper and tons of choices.

 

[Nullqube]

If you didn’t level match the amps to a fraction of a dB, all betts are off.

Wow to u guys and ur knowledge. Ok thanks so that's one of my very first questions. So I should start from speakers and u ok with active onea. Any suggestion ?
And so active can be as good as passives?

 

[Doodski]

active can be as good as passives?

Some of the active speakers are passive slayers. Setting the technology bar and leading the pack.

 

[Keith_W]

Wow to u guys and ur knowledge. Ok thanks so that's one of my very first questions. So I should start from speakers and u ok with active onea. Any suggestion ?
And so active can be as good as passives?

Dorud. Active speakers are NOT as good as passives. They are MUCH BETTER than passives. There are many theoretical reasons why they are better, namely:

- no lossy passive crossover between the amplifier and the driver. In a passive speaker you waste energy heating up the crossover.
- better control of the driver by the amp due to no passive crossover
- driver impedance changes when voice coils heat up during use. The impedance interacts with the crossover and changes the transfer function. Active speakers avoid this.
- DSP controlled active speakers are even better because it is possible to implement steep crossover slopes, correct driver anomalies, implement linear phase filters, and so on.

There are probably a dozen more reasons that I am sure ASR members will fill you in on if you were interested. But i'll focus on a few negatives of active speakers:

- They are more expensive because you need more DAC channels and amplifiers.
- They are internally more complex, so if one component fails your entire speaker fails. Repair isn't as simple as swapping out a component. Reliability is very important.
- They are less "tweakable". Audiophiles love to tweak, even objectivists. An active speaker from a company like Genelec is a finished product and there isn't much more you can do to it. I tweak my speakers all the time, taking repeated measurements, trying to refine my filters, installing different target curves, etc. I have active speakers too, but it started off as a passive design which I converted to active.

As for rugs, a good friend of mine is from Mashad. His father is a Persian rug dealer. I was supposed to travel to Iran to buy a rug a few years ago, but then the situation in Iran became unstable and then COVID hit. I still want to visit Iran, so that I can buy a lot of rugs and eat a lot of Tahdig and Tahchin, but it will have to wait.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi.

Long post:

For the longest time, AV has been dominated by myths. This forum (perhaps a few others, Not sure which ones) are reversing the trend. According to that lore, still carried by most "audiophile" magazines, electronics has a sound, a signature, heck even AC cables have a "sound signature". SO to have a great 2-channel system you needed to have:

1. A preamplifier.
2. An amplifier, preferably 2, each being mono, thus monoblocks. I could never understand why there weren't "stereoblocks" ... but I diverge.
3. A separated DAC.
4. Cables, really various cables.. each with its own sound signature.
5. Of course speakers...
6. A lot of luck, because this listing above by its lone self could cost you upward of $20K, for the High End Audio crowd, this is "entry level".

Now if you truly want greatness you should have:

1. A pair of mono Linestage, they are not longer called preamplifiers.
2. A DAC, some come in 4 separate components.
3. A Phono Stage, usually these are stereo but there are some that are mono.
4. 2 Monoblocks amplifiers with separated power supplies.
5. Cables with one single USB, yes one USB cable that could cost up to $15,000.oo , YES!!
6. Of course speakers, with some costing upward of $500,000.oo...

Such systems can cost easily upwards of $1,000,000 and ... many of those contraptions, do not sound better than a pair of properly installed SONOS 5, driven by your smartphones. Yes! Sobering.
The audiophile press and forum, will all tell you to believe your ears. DON'T. Please, do not!! Your ears are too easily fooled. And your mind does play tricks to you. Provable, Proven.

With these in mind, do know that:
Electronics are a solved problem: I am going to give you an extreme example. Many AVRs (most? ) have better performances than many SET amplifiers costing upward of $100,000.oo. Yes! In fact in term of performance a Denon AVR-X3800 at $1500.oo, is miles better than a pair of WAVAC MD-805 MKII, that cost about $200,000.oo/pair , it could actually cost more, the WAVAC that is.. no jokes. Yet, that Denon AVR is by any objective metrics, better.

You take the best speaker ever made. Flat like a pancake from 20 to 20,000 Hz with 0.01 % of THD and capable of providing 20 dB at your listening position. you place it in any room, most any room and the performance is completely turned around by the room. Depending on some factors it may sound very bad in some rooms. Science does predict how such speakers will sound but we're not discussing this yet. So the room affects to a great degree the final sound.

You could treat the room acoustically... That will be at great cost... I repeat , that shall not be an inexpensive endeavor .. No living room is likely to survive unscathed the assault of a full acoustic treatment, especially in the bass (what you describe as "boomy" sound are likely aberrations of the resulting FR due to the room but ...). Acoustics Treatments are expensive and ugly... And results are not guaranteed.

Some serious minds have worked ways to provide room corrections using digital signal processing DSP. It works, well. Extremely well. Some are better than others but they do work.

The better AVR, those from Denon and Marantz in particular come with a seriously good DRC called Audyssey. The later models will have another (not necessarily better IMO) DRC called DIRAC. Some AVRs from other manufacturers do come with DIRAC. I am in the Audyssey camp. Correctly applied These DRC transform a system from bad to good and when you really know what you are doing, by posting here and reading and being patient: From meh! to Superlative.

Now come the speakers. Active speakers present some serious advantages. They come with their own amplifiers and DSP. This allows them to be more linear than you could have thought possible. You will find the recommendation for Genelec and Neuman here ( sometimes other but these are top here IOH, In Our Opinions .) The Neumann KH150 is a stellar performer, likely one of the best speakers reviewed here. Easily Top 5 in most aspects. it could (will) play well in your room but it is not furniture grade by any stretch... I like the BMR Philharmonic speakers and IMHO and the outlier is the Revel F36. I heard the F35 and it's a surprisingly good speaker. Other will suggest other speakers.

Then there are the Kef R3, a passive speaker, The Denon is likely to power it well in your room and with the DRC, find ways to correct it integrate it in your room. You will have to work at it but it is achievable.

There are other options but this is my take and likely that of many here. At the end the decision is yours.

Peace.

 

[Nullqube]

Sorry to late reply I had my foot broken so.
So if actives are so good, what is the point of passives and amps?
And for setup a monitor speaker like neumann what would I need. Perhaps a small dac/ or amp?
Also I was reading about neumann k120a And it's mentioned that it's for near field. So is it really good for living room???

 

[Keith_W]

Sorry to late reply I had my foot broken so.
So if actives are so good, what is the point of passives and amps?

Legacy devices for people with legacy thinking. Many people in our hobby believe that the path to good sound is to mix and match amps to speakers until "synergy" is achieved. They want to be able to choose their amplifier and other electronics and swap them in a never-ending cycle of upgrading. They hate the idea of the electronics baked into the speakers. Once upon a time, when electronics were unreliable, they may have had a point about being able to swap out an amplifier if it blew up but that's not the case any more.

And for setup a monitor speaker like neumann what would I need. Perhaps a small dac/ or amp?

Look at the input for the speaker. If you see speaker binding posts, you need a DAC and an amp. If you see analog input (XLR or RCA), you need a DAC. If you see a digital input, then all you need is the source.

 

[Nullqube]

@Fran

Hi.

Long post:

For the longest time, AV has been dominated by myths. This forum (perhaps a few others, Not sure which ones) are reversing the trend. According to that lore, still carried by most "audiophile" magazines, electronics has a sound, a signature, heck even AC cables have a "sound signature". SO to have a great 2-channel system you needed to have:

1. A preamplifier.
2. An amplifier, preferably 2, each being mono, thus monoblocks. I could never understand why there weren't "stereoblocks" ... but I diverge.
3. A separated DAC.
4. Cables, really various cables.. each with its own sound signature.
5. Of course speakers...
6. A lot of luck, because this listing above by its lone self could cost you upward of $20K, for the High End Audio crowd, this is "entry level".

Now if you truly want greatness you should have:

1. A pair of mono Linestage, they are not longer called preamplifiers.
2. A DAC, some come in 4 separate components.
3. A Phono Stage, usually these are stereo but there are some that are mono.
4. 2 Monoblocks amplifiers with separated power supplies.
5. Cables with one single USB, yes one USB cable that could cost up to $15,000.oo , YES!!
6. Of course speakers, with some costing upward of $500,000.oo...

Such systems can cost easily upwards of $1,000,000 and ... many of those contraptions, do not sound better than a pair of properly installed SONOS 5, driven by your smartphones. Yes! Sobering.
The audiophile press and forum, will all tell you to believe your ears. DON'T. Please, do not!! Your ears are too easily fooled. And your mind does play tricks to you. Provable, Proven.

With these in mind, do know that:
Electronics are a solved problem: I am going to give you an extreme example. Many AVRs (most? ) have better performances than many SET amplifiers costing upward of $100,000.oo. Yes! In fact in term of performance a Denon AVR-X3800 at $1500.oo, is miles better than a pair of WAVAC MD-805 MKII, that cost about $200,000.oo/pair , it could actually cost more, the WAVAC that is.. no jokes. Yet, that Denon AVR is by any objective metrics, better.

You take the best speaker ever made. Flat like a pancake from 20 to 20,000 Hz with 0.01 % of THD and capable of providing 20 dB at your listening position. you place it in any room, most any room and the performance is completely turned around by the room. Depending on some factors it may sound very bad in some rooms. Science does predict how such speakers will sound but we're not discussing this yet. So the room affects to a great degree the final sound.

You could treat the room acoustically... That will be at great cost... I repeat , that shall not be an inexpensive endeavor .. No living room is likely to survive unscathed the assault of a full acoustic treatment, especially in the bass (what you describe as "boomy" sound are likely aberrations of the resulting FR due to the room but ...). Acoustics Treatments are expensive and ugly... And results are not guaranteed.

Some serious minds have worked ways to provide room corrections using digital signal processing DSP. It works, well. Extremely well. Some are better than others but they do work.

The better AVR, those from Denon and Marantz in particular come with a seriously good DRC called Audyssey. The later models will have another (not necessarily better IMO) DRC called DIRAC. Some AVRs from other manufacturers do come with DIRAC. I am in the Audyssey camp. Correctly applied These DRC transform a system from bad to good and when you really know what you are doing, by posting here and reading and being patient: From meh! to Superlative.

Now come the speakers. Active speakers present some serious advantages. They come with their own amplifiers and DSP. This allows them to be more linear than you could have thought possible. You will find the recommendation for Genelec and Neuman here ( sometimes other but these are top here IOH, In Our Opinions .) The Neumann KH150 is a stellar performer, likely one of the best speakers reviewed here. Easily Top 5 in most aspects. it could (will) play well in your room but it is not furniture grade by any stretch... I like the BMR Philharmonic speakers and IMHO and the outlier is the Revel F36. I heard the F35 and it's a surprisingly good speaker. Other will suggest other speakers.

Then there are the Kef R3, a passive speaker, The Denon is likely to power it well in your room and with the DRC, find ways to correct it integrate it in your room. You will have to work at it but it is achievable.

There are other options but this is my take and likely that of many here. At the end the decision is yours.

Peace.

Hi
I searched for neumann and I have found it here in local online shop.
But the thing is I read the website of it, and it was mea t for near field with ideal distance of 1 meter. Is it ok for living room? I try to test before buy it, but in mean time can u help me?
Also found focal shape 65

 

[SuicideSquid]

Throwing my hat in the ring to second those who said start with speakers and work back from there, and to put a strong endorsement on the idea of investing in active speakers.

Active speakers give you two major advantages - the speakers contain the amplifier and an active crossover in the speaker itself, which allows the designer to carefully match appropriate components and to use an active crossover which is much more efficient and, all other things being equal, will sound better than a series of resistors, capacitors, and inductors.

The other major advantage is you don't have to buy a separate amplifier. You can invest in a quality DAC/preamp, and speakers, and you're done. Instead of dropping $600-$1000 on a DAC, $1500-$2000 on an amp, and having $2000 left over for speakers, you can spend $1,000 on a dac/preamp and invest $4,000 in speakers and get a way better sounding system.

As others have noted, sometimes active studio monitors aren't the most attractive speakers, but some buck this trend. Dynaudio LYD speakers aren't the greatest studio monitors in the world but they're still a league above most passive speakers and they're gorgeous. You can get a pair of LYD7 speakers and matching subwoofer for under $3,000. Couple it with a Topping D90SE DAC/Preamp and you've got a system that'll blow the pants off many $10,000+ audiophile systems at less than half the price, and you'll have money left over to invest in some room treatment. If you don't mind how they look, you can get a pair of Neumann KH150 speakers and that Topping DAC/preamp for $5,000 and will have effectively perfect sound, but for extremely low end bass extension and whatever effect your room is having.

Regarding Bluetooth, make sure your dac/preamp and phone support AptX HD and you should be good to go for high-quality streaming from your phone. That Topping DAC supports AptX HD, FYI.

 

[SuicideSquid]

@Fran

Hi
I searched for neumann and I have found it here in local online shop.
But the thing is I read the website of it, and it was mea t for near field with ideal distance of 1 meter. Is it ok for living room? I try to test before buy it, but in mean time can u help me?
Also found focal shape 65

Neumann KH150 is totally suitable for your space. It is considered a nearfield/midfield monitor appropriate for listening very close, or at a middle distance.

 

[RayDunzl]

So if actives are so good, what is the point of passives and amps?

For the majority of us that have them:

1. They're paid for.
2. They work.
3. They're "good enough".

My speakers are from 1998, the amps bought used but manufactured in 2005, along with the preamp.

Things were enhanced a little in the last fifteen year with an appropriate DAC and DSP.

--

You're in a good position to start fresh, I wouldn't have what I have now were I just starting.

But I have no urgency to change anything.

More power than can be sanely applied, very lifelike playback when desired, adjustability should I want to change the sound in some way..

--

I have a pair of actives that are the daily drivers, JBL LSR 308, cheap and good sound for general use. Background music, radio, TV, etc.

The spec says a pair of 56W amps on the same chip in each cabinet, so, not enough to emulate a live band, but cheap to run when I'm not listening to some "main event".

Have fun trying to figure out what you want to buy.