Music Streaming - Amazon Firestick Vs HEOS - Quality Differences?

[Brantome]

Just gotta figure out how that coorelates with the Denon HEOS statement of the contrary. There has got to be someway that someone can measure exactly whats being streamed to the AVR through the WiFi connection. On the phone, I'm sure "there's an app for that?. But how to do it for the AVR?

If the Denon statement you quoted is from the link below, then that just refers to the Heos app and what I was able to do when I bought my Heos Link HS2 almost four years ago. Do you have a link for where you got the seemingly more recently dated info?

https://support-uk.denon.com/app/an...aying-amazon-ultra-hd-music-on-my-heos-system

The only change I recall (just after I sold my HS2 and bought the WiiM Mini) was the ability to access your own user playlists. I can’t see anything that suggests they upgraded their Heos skill to support lossless playback via Alexa or AlexaCast from the Amazon Music app - indeed, it would have needed Amazon to update Alexa‘s handling of skill audio and I haven’t seen any sign of that either.

I’m sticking to my guns that the WiiM devices are the only devices that will support bit perfect casting up to 24/192 from the Amazon Music app and that the best you’ll get for other devices is probably just MP3, with maybe a slim chance that ChromeCast might offer HD even though Amazon say it doesn’t support lossless playback with that.

I guess you might be able to use some sort of network analysis (maybe via your router) to see how much traffic is sent to your AVR when casting from the Amazon Music app and from that infer the bitrates being played

 

[davidc]

So I let this topic go for a few weeks and have only been streaming Amazon Music HD over the Firestick 4K. I decided to spin up the same tracks on HEOS again, and dammit, they just sound better via HEOS. Am I 100% certain that it's not in my head? No, but I'm 95% certain. I tried switching between the two with the Firestick volume leveled up by anywhere between 1dB and 3dB versus the HEOS, and this did not address the discrepancies I'm hearing. Through HEOS, music sounds...cleaner? More open? More natural? It's not a dramatic difference, but I hear it all the same.

If Amazon HD would only allow custom playlists over HEOS (search by song would be nice, too) I'd be done with this nonsense, but nope, Amazon's gonna Amazon. Do I have other options for streaming? I'm not necessarily married to Amazon HD, but a cursory search of others such as Tidal seems to indicate that they don't offer the same quality.

May I ask when you use the Firestick to stream, since it is hooked up via HDMI, what sort of video do you get on your TV screen? Is it the same as the phone app? If not, can you use your phone app to control your selections without having to interact with the Firestick remote or app?

 

[davidc]

My Node 2i with external DAC may trump the 4K Fire Stick/HDMI extractor/DAC combo in SQ streaming AMHD but the graphics and lyrics of the Fire Stick combo are so worthwhile.

When you use the Firestick to stream for Amazon Music, can you still use the Amazon Music interface on your phone to select music? What gets displayed on your TV screen? Do you have to interact with the Firestick app or remote, or can everything be done with the phone Amazon Music app?

 

[davidc]

If the Denon statement you quoted is from the link below, then that just refers to the Heos app and what I was able to do when I bought my Heos Link HS2 almost four years ago. Do you have a link for where you got the seemingly more recently dated info?

https://support-uk.denon.com/app/an...aying-amazon-ultra-hd-music-on-my-heos-system

The only change I recall (just after I sold my HS2 and bought the WiiM Mini) was the ability to access your own user playlists. I can’t see anything that suggests they upgraded their Heos skill to support lossless playback via Alexa or AlexaCast from the Amazon Music app - indeed, it would have needed Amazon to update Alexa‘s handling of skill audio and I haven’t seen any sign of that either.

I’m sticking to my guns that the WiiM devices are the only devices that will support bit perfect casting up to 24/192 from the Amazon Music app and that the best you’ll get for other devices is probably just MP3, with maybe a slim chance that ChromeCast might offer HD even though Amazon say it doesn’t support lossless playback with that.

I guess you might be able to use some sort of network analysis (maybe via your router) to see how much traffic is sent to your AVR when casting from the Amazon Music app and from that infer the bitrates being played

Yes, that is the statement I was referring to. So, it appears that this does not mean that I can get Amazon UHD using the Amazon app in any way if cast to the Denon. I can only get UHD using the HEOS app (which was vastly improved last month but still nowhere as good as the Amazon Music app). Or, I can use a Wiim streamer which allows the Amazon app to choose music and will stream UHD. But, I lose any video on my screen, I think? Correct?

What about using an Amazon Fire Stick? I would get the UHD music. But can I still use the Amazon Music app on my phone? And what sort of video stuff would be displayed on the screen?

 

[Brantome]

Yes, that is the statement I was referring to. So, it appears that this does not mean that I can get Amazon UHD using the Amazon app in any way if cast to the Denon. I can only get UHD using the HEOS app (which was vastly improved last month but still nowhere as good as the Amazon Music app). Or, I can use a Wiim streamer which allows the Amazon app to choose music and will stream UHD. But, I lose any video on my screen, I think? Correct?

What about using an Amazon Fire Stick? I would get the UHD music. But can I still use the Amazon Music app on my phone? And what sort of video stuff would be displayed on the screen?

Since my last post in this or the other thread, I did some tests casting and it would appear the Amazon Music app can support HD over ChromeCast, if your AVR supports that. The amazon music HD FAQ on the UK website that I often refer to seems out of date, as another help page I just found contradicts it and says "Chromecast Gen 2 and Gen 3 support HD quality playback. Support for other Google Cast devices will vary by model.". I did a test using my WiiM amp by connecting it to a hotspot on my phone and using a data monitoring app to estimate the MB usage while playing a track for 3 minutes using ChromeCast to the Amp, I got roughly 950kbps for a UHD file which puts it in the realms of a compressed lossless 16/44.1 FLAC rather than a lossy MP3.

I did use a gen 2 Fire TV Cube for Amazon Music before the HEOS Link HS2 but found the sound somehow lacking. I still use it for movies etc though. I have it plugged into an HDMI socket on my Linn MDSM/4 which supports up to 24/192, and take the video out from that into the TV. The Fire TV Amazon Music app is definitely designed for TV use (as you'd hope) so the interface and navigation is different from the phone app and can't be controlled by that. For some Fire TV devices , you can cast from the phone Amazon Music app (there doesn't seem to be a pattern - I can for my Fire TV stick 2020, but not my gen 2 Cube) - what's displayed on the TV is basic artwork and info and maybe lyrics but less than what the Fire TV app itself shows. Also, the fire TV app isn't bit perfect as it plays back at the max resolution of the device it's connected to - for my TV Cube, that's 24/192 even for a 16/44.1 track. Maybe that explains the lacklustre sound.

If your AVR supports ChromeCast from the Amazon Music app like my WiiM Amp does, then the phone app can support HD over that and that may be enough for you.

The quest for bit perfect Amazon Music playback was long and tortuous for me until I got my WiiM Mini which I now use to play bit perfect up to 24/192 over optical into my Linn amp, no guessing involved. A WiiM streamer might be a worthwhile investment for you too...

 

[Poultrygeist]

When you use the Firestick to stream for Amazon Music, can you still use the Amazon Music interface on your phone to select music? What gets displayed on your TV screen? Do you have to interact with the Firestick app or remote, or can everything be done with the phone Amazon Music app?

With the 4K Fire Stick and HDMI audio extractor you use the remote not your phone. In this picture you can see 192 on the DAC which agrees with the monitor display.

 

[Brantome]

With the 4K Fire Stick and HDMI audio extractor you use the remote not your phone. In this picture you can see 192 on the DAC which agrees with the monitor display.

View attachment 352905

However, if you play say a 16/44.1, I suspect your DAC still shows 24/192 as the Fire Tv (or any other platform for that matter) Amazon Music app isn’t bit perfect and upsamples everything to the resolution the DAC supports, up to 24/192 UHD. The info on the amazon music app screen lies for those lower resolutions…

 

[Poultrygeist]

However, if you play say a 16/44.1, I suspect your DAC still shows 24/192 as the Fire Tv (or any other platform for that matter) Amazon Music app isn’t bit perfect and upsamples everything to the resolution the DAC supports, up to 24/192 UHD. The info on the amazon music app screen lies for those lower resolutions…

Haven't noticed if that is the case.

 

[Brantome]

Haven't noticed if that is the case.

It’s long been accepted as a shortfall as well as being my personal experience with the Amazon Music app on several platforms (PC, iPad, android phone and tablet, and various fire tv models) and discussed extensively (inter alia) in this Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonMusic/comments/xnr2h9

 

[Poultrygeist]

It’s long been accepted as a shortfall as well as being my personal experience with the Amazon Music app on several platforms (PC, iPad, android phone and tablet, and various fire tv models) and discussed extensively (inter alia) in this Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonMusic/comments/xnr2h9

I spend more time listening to the Fire Stick/HDMI audio extractor/DAC combo than I do with the Node and separate DAC streaming Ultra HD. I don't notice any advantage with the latter paired with my Lowther/Bottlehead set up.

 

[Brantome]

I spend more time listening to the Fire Stick/HDMI audio extractor/DAC combo than I do with the Node and separate DAC streaming Ultra HD. I don't notice any advantage with the latter paired with my Lowther/Bottlehead set up.

Guess it suits your setup and preferences better than it suited mine

While I wouldn’t say I have the most discerning hearing nor can I explain why, but my gen 2 fire tv cube connected directly over hdmi to my amp sounded “thin” compared to a Heos Link HS2 over coax into the same amp.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Guess it suits your setup and preferences better than it suited mine

While I wouldn’t say I have the most discerning hearing nor can I explain why, but my gen 2 fire tv cube connected directly over hdmi to my amp sounded “thin” compared to a Heos Link HS2 over coax into the same amp.

I have a Denon with HEOS but never bothered to try it. I'm not a fan of AVR's for music.