me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[Deleted member 4708]

I found a site that compiles a long list of reviews around ATC products: http://www.audiostereo.ro/ATC_reviews.html

 

[richard12511]

There was always be those with different personal preference.

Based on the data available, the Genelec system is objectively far better, and would likely be preferred by the majority of folks. Sighted tests might go either way, based on biases, but blind tests would heavily favor the Genelec.

Have you considered D&D 8C? I own the 8351b, but I subjectively preferred the 8C for 2.0 listening due to its better bass. IMO, it's the best speaker I've ever heard if you don't have(or don't want) multiple subwoofers scattered about. Adding the W371a will obviously surpass the 8C, but is also 3x the price.

 

[richard12511]

Crossing over 8 inch driver to the tweeter? No amount of DSP will fix that. If it had a proper mid driver like Genelec and other speakers, I'd be tempted. I'd like to see a100db SPL thd measurement for this speaker, as I believe it won't be pretty.

I actually had this same concern, but subjectively heard nothing wrong with it. I think the rather large waveguide around the tweeter is the answer. The objective measurements by @napilopez show it to be no issue.

 

[Gregm]

Thanks for your reply. Could you be more explicit as to why you preferred the ATC 150 over the Genelec 8361A? Just curios - even if it is subjective.

First off, please note that I listened to classical, orchestral, music in a ¬45m sq room; both speaker pair were placed on low stands.
On small ensembles, the sound was very satisfactory from both, the Gens seemed to be more bright i.e. mid-hi frequencies were more prominent than with the ATC. The details were exxcellent with both speakers, subjectively, the Gens had a slight edge in making very low level detail more evident (perhaps because bass & mid-bass was less pronounced with the Gens).

The major difference was in full dynamic content (crescendo -- fff) where the Atc filled the room and sounded fully fleshed; the Gen sounded more like a light, low fat, version. Keep in mind that both delivered high amplitutdes without a problem -- i.e. a Mahler 2 has a few dramatic ffff moments in the 1st movement (allegro maestoso): the ATC filled the room with the orchestra. By comparison the orchestra seemed smaller with the Gens (and it wasn't a mastering matter).

That said, overall the ATC sounded more lifelike. Obviously, I cannot ultimately tell you which of the two is more precise - true to the source... Regards

 

[Frank Dernie]

First off, please note that I listened to classical, orchestral, music in a ¬45m sq room; both speaker pair were placed on low stands.
On small ensembles, the sound was very satisfactory from both, the Gens seemed to be more bright i.e. mid-hi frequencies were more prominent than with the ATC. The details were exxcellent with both speakers, subjectively, the Gens had a slight edge in making very low level detail more evident (perhaps because bass & mid-bass was less pronounced with the Gens).

The major difference was in full dynamic content (crescendo -- fff) where the Atc filled the room and sounded fully fleshed; the Gen sounded more like a light, low fat, version. Keep in mind that both delivered high amplitutdes without a problem -- i.e. a Mahler 2 has a few dramatic ffff moments in the 1st movement (allegro maestoso): the ATC filled the room with the orchestra. By comparison the orchestra seemed smaller with the Gens (and it wasn't a mastering matter).

That said, overall the ATC sounded more lifelike. Obviously, I cannot ultimately tell you which of the two is more precise - true to the source... Regards

This post is an important reminder, IMHO, that if you have a large room and sit a reasonable distance from your speakers most of the speakers so far tested by Amir will be inadequate on classical music.

I have found many times that speakers which sound fabulous on string quartets fall over when trying to reproduce the big turn of the century masterpieces I enjoy from Bruckner, Mahler et al.
A speaker which can't impress with its rendition of the bass drum in Verdi's Requiem in my room are as much use as a chocolate teapot as far as I am concerned.

 

[FeddyLost]

By comparison the orchestra seemed smaller with the Gens (and it wasn't a mastering matter).

I suppose it's same issue with "radiating size".
When midbass (up to 380 Hz in case of ATC150) is played with 15" driver, it matters if you need to image something big.
Also, it matters if you want to sit really close.
So, we need to know room size, distance and expected SPL from TS.

Regarding options list - I've heard big Geithains (16" woofer, don't remember exact model, maybe 901 itself) and they are really impressive. Sounds like big PA but with top monitors SQ (detailed, dry, fast and effortless). Metallica live was wery concert-ish, for example.

About other options I just don't know. They are really of very different concepts, so it's like apples to garlic to ice cream comparison.
Personally I'd reject option with XTZ multiamping just due to a lot of work required to make final result and possibility to fry tweeter with defeated crossover if something will go wrong.

 

[DSJR]

May I butt in yet again please?

Domestic audio people have traditionally been short changed on choice of larger better speaker systems, being limited to what the dealer/salons can provide. ATC and PMC are mainly the only two readily accessible for domestic consumers, able to sit down for a dem (once Covid is rendered safer to do so) with domestic orientated sources and so on. Tannoy and JBL just never promoted their professional stuff domestically and now, classic JBL's in the Synthesis line are thought too old fashioned here and 'wrongly shaped' away from the retro market they're perceived as attracting (my very local dealer ordered a pair of Synthesis L100's having quite liked the sound, yet cancelled the order as 'I' was the only one interested and wasn't going to buy them (I would like a shot given the funds as three way active ATC's and posh modern equivalents are beyond me now)

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I am having a problem trying to find an USA dealer for Geithan ME. As @DSJR alluded I might be constrained in my choices by what is mainstream . Well, first world problems. And the COVID situation makes my timing choice very poor.
At this point I am back and forth between Geithain ME 801K/901K and ATC SCM150AS "pro". The only problem I still have with the SCM150AS is the 15" driver crossed to a 3" driver at 380. This seems too low for a 3" driver - it is simple physics.

 

[Frank Dernie]

This seems too low for a 3" driver - it is simple physics.

No it isn't too low for the ATC 3" driver which is flat from 400Hz, so 380 will be ideal for the crossover (as ATC obviously know having made it for decades). Have you seen the size of its motor?
The Genelec 3" driver is used down to 67Hz in the 8010 fwiw but obviously nowhere near the loudness level of the ATC at 380Hz though amazingly its distortion doesn't get hideous until around 150Hz.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

No it isn't too low for the ATC 3" driver which is flat from 400Hz, so 380 will be ideal for the crossover (as ATC obviously know having made it for decades). Have you seen the size of its motor?
The Genelec 3" driver is used down to 67Hz in the 8010 fwiw but obviously nowhere near the loudness level of the ATC at 380Hz though amazingly its distortion doesn't get hideous until around 150Hz.

That was informative - thank you! BTW - I know the size of that motor is approx the size of a VW . And it weights 7kg - clear sign of obesity.

 

[FeddyLost]

The only problem I still have with the SCM150AS is the 15" driver crossed to a 3" driver at 380.

It's not a problem for this driver unless you expect it to work all the time at max continuous SPL from manual. But in that case you'll need something big with horn like M2 or PA array.
It may cause serious directivity mismatch, but still a lot of tracks are mastered on big ATCs, so you may expect better rendering of an artistic idea.
Personally I think they are overpriced, but if you need this level and clean SPL, there's not many options available.
And keep in mind it's better to have ones with new ATC HF transducer, improved over old OEM ones.

 

[pierre]

There was always be those with different personal preference.

Based on the data available, the Genelec system is objectively far better, and would likely be preferred by the majority of folks. Sighted tests might go either way, based on biases, but blind tests would heavily favor the Genelec.

Have you considered D&D 8C? I own the 8351b, but I subjectively preferred the 8C for 2.0 listening due to its better bass. IMO, it's the best speaker I've ever heard if you don't have(or don't want) multiple subwoofers scattered about. Adding the W371a will obviously surpass the 8C, but is also 3x the price.

If you have a large room (i would tell more than 50 sqm) W371+83x1 does it well. You still need a subwoofer if you love sub-bass.
My room is 6mx8m, LP 3.5m from the speakers. 8361 and 1 or 2 large subs would also have make it to be honest.
Level wise, i have no issue either with classical music or with electro. I have been over 110dB at LP for fun and I am sure you can go over. My sub is too small to keep up (7370) with the W371 so I removed it. Directivity is really smooth which is a plus.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Does anyone have any idea if Geithain ME is available in USA? Do they have service in the USA? I can't seem to find any USA dealer.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

A cardioid midrange is going to make more of a difference than a coaxial driver unless you're using them near field. ME Gethains, the Kii Three, and the Dutch & Dutch 8C have this. The Kii Three and Dutch & Dutch 8C have waveguides for the tweeters, and the ME Geithains. Both of those two speakers have measurements just about as good as a speaker with a constant dirdctivity can have, with the Dutch & Dutch 8C being a little bit better.

I have the Dutch & Dutch 8C. These things produce sound in a way that I didn't even know was possible for a pair of loudspeakers. The cardioid midrange allows them to give you a window into the music with a super deep soundstage that other speakers would struggle to produce without some hefty acoustic treatment. I have Salon2's, and they are obviously superior in this respect.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

A cardioid midrange is going to make more of a difference than a coaxial driver unless you're using them near field. ME Gethains, the Kii Three, and the Dutch & Dutch 8C have this. The Kii Three and Dutch & Dutch 8C have waveguides for the tweeters, and the ME Geithains. Both of those two speakers have measurements just about as good as a speaker with a constant dirdctivity can have, with the Dutch & Dutch 8C being a little bit better.

I have the Dutch & Dutch 8C. These things produce sound in a way that I didn't even know was possible for a pair of loudspeakers. The cardioid midrange allows them to give you a window into the music with a super deep soundstage that other speakers would struggle to produce without some hefty acoustic treatment. I have Salon2's, and they are obviously superior in this respect.

The only one I am considering in this group is ME Geithains - proven company, proven speakers. However, I can't seem to find a USA dealer.

 

[Purité Audio]

I tried a pair of 944’s ? here and spent a few hours with the 901s at KMR, they are good but just a little more congested than the ‘mid-range’ cardioid variants.
These were they,


Keith

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I tried a pair of 944’s ? here and spent a few hours with the 901s at KMR, they are good but just a little more congested than the ‘mid-range’ cardioid variants.
These were they,


Keith

Lucky you! I live in the Wild West (California) and can't find any dealer...

 

[Logix]

The ATCs are probably the best monitors at any price point.
There is a reason why we see so many high end studios with ATC.. they can afford anything they want and most of them are experienced enough to know what to listen to in a speaker.
There is something that sounds fake in many of these dsp speakers and I tried quite a few of them.. nothing compares to ATC IMO.
I would love to try ME Geithains but like you said, you just can't find them in the US.
Either way, don't take too seriously any online forum and definitely not sellers who try to promote products they sell. Just go and listen for yourself and if you have the budget, buy 2-3 pairs at once, test them in your room and keep the one you like best. (not possible with ATC 50 and up as they are special order so you can't return them.)

 

[Hephaestus]

The ATCs are probably the best monitors at any price point.
There is a reason why we see so many high end studios with ATC.. they can afford anything they want and most of them are experienced enough to know what to listen to in a speaker.
There is something that sounds fake in many of these dsp speakers and I tried quite a few of them.. nothing compares to ATC IMO.
I would love to try ME Geithains but like you said, you just can't find them in the US.
Either way, don't take too seriously any online forum and definitely not sellers who try to promote products they sell. Just go and listen for yourself and if you have the budget, buy 2-3 pairs at once, test them in your room and keep the one you like best. (not possible with ATC 50 and up as they are special order so you can't return them.)

It seems you have joined the wrong forum? This is not place for such statements - this is a science based forum.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/

 

[Mykola]

If you have a large room (i would tell more than 50 sqm) W371+83x1 does it well. You still need a subwoofer if you love sub-bass.
My room is 6mx8m, LP 3.5m from the speakers. 8361 and 1 or 2 large subs would also have make it to be honest.
Level wise, i have no issue either with classical music or with electro. I have been over 110dB at LP for fun and I am sure you can go over. My sub is too small to keep up (7370) with the W371 so I removed it. Directivity is really smooth which is a plus.

I got 8361s in 5x8 room with opening and lacking bass . @pierre do you think 2x 7370 would be reaching decent spl before bottoming out ?