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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Gorgonzola

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Once spoken, personal impressions become a matter of opinion. As such, they have entered the domain of public review, as in assent or dissent. The assertion that they are personal does not make them unassailable.

Once you say something in public, you have a choice: defend it or admit you may be wrong.

I've done both. :)

Jim

When I state that the sound of some component is my personal impression with which another person may consider or dismiss, I am inherently admitting I might be wrong -- no need for further defence.

By & large reviewers report their impressions; rarely do they insist that another person must necessarily agree with them. In addition to his excellent measurements and technical commentary, Amir also often reports his impressions of the sound, quite routinely in the case of speakers. Do you begrudge him that?
 
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Galliardist

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One thorough set of measurements can say something about a component but not everything about the perceived sound quality , since there is not a one to one function for that.

One subjective opinion on how something sounds like says nothing . 100 opinions averaged in a context of system setups that have reasonably good measurements can confer some confidence and could act as a complement to measurements.
It’s still faulty thinking, no matter how many subjective reports you have.

What we have in a sighted subjective opinion is a translation of a known difference into a response of “hearing” the difference, regardless of whether the sound waves changed.

If one hundred people made the same component change, between two identically measuring items in very different boxes, and all describe a change in sound: is it because the sound waves somehow changed, or because their systems look different? The thing is, we wouldn’t know. Make it ten thousand people, we still wouldn’t know.

The visible change is always there.
 

Galliardist

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As an experiment, I replaced the wall wart with a homemade 5VDC 1A power supply, which helped. A friend not into DIY used a "Topping P50" and reported similar results (although he did mention that the differences were "marginal"). Some say it's snake oil, but I know what I hear. I am not a disciple of Peter Belt, but I also believe that we still can't measure everything related to how we hear. Most audio equipment today have virtually indistinguishable measurements (for example: no audible difference between a THD of 0.001% and 0.01%). Still, often equipment that measures the same (using the measurement techniques we are aware of) sounds different. You try different stuff, choose what you like and discard the rest. That's the way I like to look at it.
You misunderstand Peter Belt. The basis on which he worked was that electronics were solved with the introduction of CD, and his techniques and products were designed to influence the listener. The sound waves remain the same.

I remember being told that in one of his demonstrations he changed amplifiers, blind, with no change heard by some listeners: but when he moved an ashtray across a table in the room, the same listeners described a large improvement in the sound. One of the hi fi magazines had an article on him that described something similar.
 
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ads_cft222

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It’s still faulty thinking, no matter how many subjective reports you have.

What we have in a sighted subjective opinion is a translation of a known difference into a response of “hearing” the difference, regardless of whether the sound waves changed.

If one hundred people made the same component change, between two identically measuring items in very different boxes, and all describe a change in sound: is it because the sound waves somehow changed, or because their systems look different? The thing is, we wouldn’t know. Make it ten thousand people, we still wouldn’t know.

The visible change is always there.
I am actually referring to a general averaged statement that takes away micro differences that could be attributed to placebo.

If the said component has generally satisfying sound without any obvious artifacts eg. harshness, as stated by 100 people, even if those people test it under no blind test conditions or ideal conditions does not matter , since the likelihood that all 100 are wrong in their very broad perception is unlikely. If there is an undesirable characteristic in the component a pattern will be formed.

Now get the above backed up by good measurements and you can make a safe choice if you are buying first time or at least make a good short list before auditioning.

If you are upgrading it is tougher..... you need to hear for yourself and you cannot rely just on better measurements, since in the end you are the one to "live" with the component. In this case the difference needs to be big both in measurements and audible perception. In this case ideally you need to do a blind test.
 

Galliardist

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I am actually referring to a general averaged statement that takes away micro differences that could be attributed to placebo.

If the said component has generally satisfying sound without any obvious artifacts eg. harshness, as stated by 100 people, even if those people test it under no blind test conditions or ideal conditions does not matter , since the likelihood that all 100 are wrong in their very broad perception is unlikely. If there is an undesirable characteristic in the component a pattern will be formed.

Now get the above backed up by good measurements and you can make a safe choice if you are buying first time or at least make a good short list before auditioning.

If you are upgrading it is tougher..... you need to hear for yourself and you cannot rely just on better measurements, since in the end you are the one to "live" with the component. In this case the difference needs to be big both in measurements and audible perception. In this case ideally you need to do a blind test.
No.

Multiplying subjective sighted results do not increase their accuracy if there is no audible difference in tbe sound waves.
It’s like arguing that not all of a sample of 100 people will fall for a common optical illusion.

Also, using a blind test to choose an amplifier that you will then use possibly for a decade or more, sighted, is not a good idea.

In any case, the most likely reason to “upgrade” an amplifier, if the one you already own is competent, is not going to be “sound quality” but some other need, such as increased power to match different speakers, or a different feature set. You need to test the latter, at least, sighted.
 
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Amir also often reports his impressions of the sound, quite routinely in the case of speakers. Do you begrudge him that?

Amir is a very kind and generous person. One of his purposes in starting this site is to teach.

I have frequently commented on posters making subjective impressions here. I believe my point more often than not is that UNREFERENCED opinions are worthless. I may have been remiss a time or two, but I'm not sure. I stand behind that fully; use of words such as "bright", "hard", "wooly", "musical", (etc.) are, in and of themselves, worthless. They cannot transfer any meaning from one person to another, because the recipient may take the meaning as something totally different. THAT'S SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE UNREFERENCED; THEY HAVE NO ANCHORING POINT.

If you examine the reviews that Amir has done, you'll see that his section on comments of the sound are hand-in-glove with equalization suggestions, usually shown in Roon.

For instance:



What Amir is TRYING to do here is to show subjectivists that "impressions" need to be correlated to tests and measurements. His commentary includes his impressions, and then a detailed parametric solution, with impressions AFTER equalization.

Amir's "impressions" is not the romantic, imprecise and misleading gibberish of the run-of-the-mill subjectivist "reviewer" clan. Not at all. (Amir is a TRAINED LISTENER, among other things. The run-of-the-mill subjectivist is not.) His comments are showing precise relationships between words and EQ measurements. Notice that sometimes he even makes the comment that certain qualities are not able to be affected by EQ ..... perhaps, for instance, an effect caused by a spike of high distortion. Again, this is information that everyone can find valuable ..... because there is a before-the-EQ (which is shown) and an after-the-EQ comparison. It teaches the point that not all audible characteristics can be cured by EQ, in case some might think otherwise.

It also promotes the point that all audible characteristics are shown in tests and measurements. If a person hears something that is not shown in tests and measurements, then the tests and measurements were not done correctly or they were not adequately exhaustive.

The corollary is that if exhaustive tests and measurements do NOT support the characteristic that a listener claims to hear, then that characteristic doesn't exist. The listener is at fault; they are either operating under the influence of one of many biases, or they have deluded themselves as part of a social agenda.

That is, for many, many people, a hard pill to swallow. Amir tries to make his points as gently as possible, but data is unemotional. What is ..... is.

Jim
 
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ads_cft222

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No.

Multiplying subjective sighted results do not increase their accuracy if there is no audible difference in tbe sound waves.
It’s like arguing that not all of a sample of 100 people will fall for a common optical illusion.

Also, using a blind test to choose an amplifier that you will then use possibly for a decade or more, sighted, is not a good idea.

In any case, the most likely reason to “upgrade” an amplifier, if the one you already own is competent, is not going to be “sound quality” but some other need, such as increased power to match different speakers, or a different feature set. You need to test the latter, at least, sighted.
I understand the core reason of your disagreement. What I have carefully stated does not "attack" in any way the core belief in this forum.

I will just say that I agree with the below:

 

IPunchCholla

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I understand the core reason of your disagreement. What I have carefully stated does not "attack" in any way the core belief in this forum.

I will just say that I agree with the below:

That list contains inaccuracies and conflates causes with effects. The first inaccuracy is getting transient response wrong. Transient response and frequency response are different views of the same thing. Knowing one gives you the other.

There are several other mischaracterizations as well.

The conflation comes in with elements like circuit and components. Those are causes of noise, distortion, and load dependence not differing types of characteristics of the sound.
 

atmasphere

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For me, rather, the question is whether your claims actually result in audible effects, since it would appear that with properly designed amps the distortion products are all extremely low; the feedback doesn't taper off as soon as your example states; and the higher order harmonics of distortion where feedback is lower are above 20kHz.
What is meant by 'properly designed amps'?

To prevent feedback from decreasing, you need a really high value of Gain Bandwidth Product (and for those that don't know, this is simply the frequency at which the circuit's gain has fallen to a value of 1, or 'unity gain'). To give you an understanding, let's say the amp has 30dB of gain, which is pretty common in higher powered solid state amps. That's a gain of 1000; if the GBP is 1 MHz, then we divide that by 1000 and we get 1KHz which will be the turnover frequency at which distortion will increase. Quite a lot of solid state amps have values like this that might be considered 'properly designed'.

You really need a GBP much higher than that! 10MHz might be a good start. Then with the same gain, the turnover frequency is 10KHz, so harmonics are far less likely to be annoying- except to a cat or dog (if they leave the room when you turn the stereo on...).

Put another way, feedback has been poorly applied in most amplifiers made, tube or solid state. This is for two reasons, the first just pointed out, the second being that usually the feedback is applied to a non-linear node in the circuit which distorts the feedback before it can do its job. FWIW opamps don't do this since the feedback is mixed with the incoming signal outside the actual opamp circuit. The result is correction that is far more accurate, and no surprise, its fairly easy to design opamp audio circuits that are very neutral, especially with modern opamps.

You can imagine that if distortion were rising with frequency in a preamp circuit, and then that was driving an amplifier with the same problem, the result would be quite a lot more distortion than the numbers (THD) would have suggested, and it would be mostly higher orders!

Going out on a limb here (mostly on account of the response this comment is likely to engender), blind trust in the numbers is no better and no different than blind trust in your ears- its still blind trust. Both can fool you (and quite often spec sheets are devised to do exactly that; thus might be actually be easier to fool those who rely solely on the numbers). That different amps might sound different isn't weird or religious, its a simple fact. You have to look at the distortion spectra, if distortion rises with frequency and if so, what frequency, does it rise faster after an octave or two and so on. Most of these measurements are simply never done, and worse there is a paucity of understanding of their significance. If two very different amps that have different cost and appearance have similar distortion spectra and the like, they are probably going to sound the same, since the distortion of the amp is also its 'sonic signature' (and in some cases, so is the output impedance) and if those amps happen to be the ones being compared, you might fool yourself into thinking that all amps sound the same.

Put another way, there is a direct link between what we can hear and what can be measured. Both the subjectivist guys and the measurement guys seem to hate that so I get a lot of pushback, but I've found that if you place belief above science you're likely going to make up a story that isn't true and then live your life as if it were true. It may well be that I am mistaken, that there is no link at all between what we can hear and what we measure; Occam's Razor and my experience in the audio biz of the last 45 years says otherwise.

I don't think this issue of subjectivist/objectivist is going away any time soon due to the lack of education and the lack of in-depth measurements. Its pretty safe to assume that threads like this will still be around 10 years from now. Enjoy the ride- its a long one.
 

tmtomh

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What is meant by 'properly designed amps'?

To prevent feedback from decreasing, you need a really high value of Gain Bandwidth Product (and for those that don't know, this is simply the frequency at which the circuit's gain has fallen to a value of 1, or 'unity gain'). To give you an understanding, let's say the amp has 30dB of gain, which is pretty common in higher powered solid state amps. That's a gain of 1000; if the GBP is 1 MHz, then we divide that by 1000 and we get 1KHz which will be the turnover frequency at which distortion will increase. Quite a lot of solid state amps have values like this that might be considered 'properly designed'.

You really need a GBP much higher than that! 10MHz might be a good start. Then with the same gain, the turnover frequency is 10KHz, so harmonics are far less likely to be annoying- except to a cat or dog (if they leave the room when you turn the stereo on...).

Put another way, feedback has been poorly applied in most amplifiers made, tube or solid state. This is for two reasons, the first just pointed out, the second being that usually the feedback is applied to a non-linear node in the circuit which distorts the feedback before it can do its job. FWIW opamps don't do this since the feedback is mixed with the incoming signal outside the actual opamp circuit. The result is correction that is far more accurate, and no surprise, its fairly easy to design opamp audio circuits that are very neutral, especially with modern opamps.

You can imagine that if distortion were rising with frequency in a preamp circuit, and then that was driving an amplifier with the same problem, the result would be quite a lot more distortion than the numbers (THD) would have suggested, and it would be mostly higher orders!

Going out on a limb here (mostly on account of the response this comment is likely to engender), blind trust in the numbers is no better and no different than blind trust in your ears- its still blind trust. Both can fool you (and quite often spec sheets are devised to do exactly that; thus might be actually be easier to fool those who rely solely on the numbers). That different amps might sound different isn't weird or religious, its a simple fact. You have to look at the distortion spectra, if distortion rises with frequency and if so, what frequency, does it rise faster after an octave or two and so on. Most of these measurements are simply never done, and worse there is a paucity of understanding of their significance. If two very different amps that have different cost and appearance have similar distortion spectra and the like, they are probably going to sound the same, since the distortion of the amp is also its 'sonic signature' (and in some cases, so is the output impedance) and if those amps happen to be the ones being compared, you might fool yourself into thinking that all amps sound the same.

Put another way, there is a direct link between what we can hear and what can be measured. Both the subjectivist guys and the measurement guys seem to hate that so I get a lot of pushback, but I've found that if you place belief above science you're likely going to make up a story that isn't true and then live your life as if it were true. It may well be that I am mistaken, that there is no link at all between what we can hear and what we measure; Occam's Razor and my experience in the audio biz of the last 45 years says otherwise.

I don't think this issue of subjectivist/objectivist is going away any time soon due to the lack of education and the lack of in-depth measurements. Its pretty safe to assume that threads like this will still be around 10 years from now. Enjoy the ride- its a long one.

I appreciate the information and lessons about feedback and amplifier design. As noted previously, I appreciate and respect your expert knowledge, and while I believe I follow what you are saying clearly, I could not begin to teach it to someone else (which is the clear indicator that I lack the engineering training and professional expertise that you have).

So my questions, as a consumer, is much simpler, and I hope you'll forgive me for asking such basic questions:

Do you think that, say, the Purifi module or the Hypex Nilai module, creates audible distortion at higher frequencies - that is, do you think these modules produce audible changes in tonality because of non-masked, additive impacts of high-order harmonic distortion in the 4-20kHz range?

If so, on what basis do you think that?

Please note I am not asking whether reduced feedback results in rising distortion - you have covered that quite well. I am asking if you are claiming that these amps' distortion audibly distorts the frequency response they output (again, by increasing the amplitude at those high-order harmonic frequencies), and if you are claiming that, what is the basis for that claim?

And I would also ask, what is the distortion level at which you feel the distortion produces reliably audible effects? In other words, if we're talking about that 1kHz point again, we know that you can run a 1kHz signal through an amp and see the amplitude of the distortion components. So for example, if the 5th-order distortion component is down 90dB from the 1kHz fundamental, then if you add that -90dB 5kHz distortion component to whatever the amplitude is of a musical signal at 5kHz, will that harmonic distortion component at 5kHz alter the tonality of the musical signal by boosting the 5kHz amplitude portion of that signal?

Thanks!
 

voodooless

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Do you think that, say, the Purifi module or the Hypex Nilai module, creates audible distortion at higher frequencies - that is, do you think these modules produce audible changes in tonality because of non-masked, additive impacts of high-order harmonic distortion in the 4-20kHz range?
Please note that the story about gain bandwidth cannot be applied to Class-D amps without significant modification. Some insights about this can be found here:


Or, if you have more time:

 

navin

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Blind check?
As a hobbyist, I work solo. I can't change the wires and not be aware of the change, can I?

I might be biased, but I have no one to sell to but me, so I try to be as unbiased as I can be. I am not bound by the equipment cost (by that, I mean I do not believe that just because I bought it, it doesn't need to be good).
 

tmtomh

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Please note that the story about gain bandwidth cannot be applied to Class-D amps without significant modification. Some insights about this can be found here:


Or, if you have more time:


Thanks!

In that case I would ask @atmasphere (and anyone else who wants to chime in of course) a simpler and more general version of the question, applied to any kind of amp:

Is there a threshold of higher-order harmonic distortion level that audibly changes high-frequency tonality? If so, what is the lowest order that counts as non-masked higher-order, what is the relative amplitude/percentage threshold, and on what basis do you claim that this threshold is likely to produce audible tonal change aka audible nonlinearities in frequency response?
 

voodooless

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Thanks!

In that case I would ask @atmasphere (and anyone else who wants to chime in of course) a simpler and more general version of the question, applied to any kind of amp:

Is there a threshold of higher-order harmonic distortion level that audibly changes high-frequency tonality? If so, what is the lowest order that counts as non-masked higher-order, what is the relative amplitude/percentage threshold, and on what basis do you claim that this threshold is likely to produce audible tonal change aka audible nonlinearities in frequency response?
And don’t forget: “have any proof to back this up?”
 

navin

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You misunderstand Peter Belt. The basis on which he worked was that electronics were solved with the introduction of CD, and his techniques and products were designed to influence the listener. The sound waves remain the same.

I remember being told that in one of his demonstrations he changed amplifiers, blind, with no change heard by some listeners: but when he moved an ashtray across a table in the room, the same listeners described a large improvement in the sound. One of the hi fi magazines had an article on him that described something similar.
My view:
1. The introduction of the CD only gave us a new set of problems to be solved. The first Magnavox / Philips and Sony CD players weren't great; not even as good as a $300 turntable from the era. CD players did get better over time.

2. I am hard-pressed to believe that the position of an ashtray in a room changes anything (unless you are using it to cover the tweeter). I don't think I am a die-hard objectivist (Julian Hirsch School of Audio) or subjectivist (J. Gordon Holt School of Audio). I am a tinkerer. I believe what I can hear (biased or not). I am not active on forums because I'd rather march to the beat of my own drummer.
 

voodooless

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That's why I asked, "on what basis do you claim" that the threshold is audible. I'm always interested to see what folks think counts as evidence.
Yeah, that’s too vague for me. That could also mean intuition, common sense, or Occam’s razor;)
 

Mart68

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My view:
1. The introduction of the CD only gave us a new set of problems to be solved. The first Magnavox / Philips and Sony CD players weren't great; not even as good as a $300 turntable from the era. CD players did get better over time.

2. I am hard-pressed to believe that the position of an ashtray in a room changes anything (unless you are using it to cover the tweeter). I don't think I am a die-hard objectivist (Julian Hirsch School of Audio) or subjectivist (J. Gordon Holt School of Audio). I am a tinkerer. I believe what I can hear (biased or not). I am not active on forums because I'd rather march to the beat of my own drummer.
This is not my experience but then I have owned some of those early players and still have a Marantz CD54. They are all better than any turntable at any price. Measurements support that.

Moving the ashtray is just a psychological cue - it's no different from installing a magic fuse or attaching a grounding box - nothing in the sound waves changes but 'worthwhile benefits' are often perceived.
 

Ricardus

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My view:
1. The introduction of the CD only gave us a new set of problems to be solved.
Which problems?

The first Magnavox / Philips and Sony CD players weren't great;
Curious. What was wrong with them? I didn't buy any of the first gen CD players of the time. I mean first gen everything is never perfect.
 
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