Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[sonitus mirus]

I cannot disprove your claim and therefore accept it wholeheartedly.

Can you provide any evidence that you cannot disprove the claim?

 

[RayDunzl]

I've reached the end of this thread!

 

[voodooless]

I've reached the end of this thread!

No you did not… this is now the end… for now at least…

 

[DonR]

Can you provide any evidence that you cannot disprove the claim?

Yes I can, I put it in the teapot.

 

[Guettel]

That’s the whole problem. It always gives you a cop-out to call it a bad argument, without having to prove the opposite: show a single counter example. Because if there is one thing @Guettel will not do, is show a single counter example.

I'm not the one making the claim. He's making the claim and won't provide scientific evidence for it.
Not good for a science forum.

 

[Guettel]

You are a troll, right?

Asking for evidence of a claim in a forum that purports to be scientific makes me a troll?

If not, then I don't think anybody has made the claim that it can be proven with 100% certainty that there cannot be a variable that cannot be measured that is also audible. It would be silly.

"There is absolutely no audible phenomenon that isn't trivially measurable." is what he said.

If it's such a silly thing to claim, then stop claiming it.

In which case, the only defensible conclusion is that measurements cannot be said to be everything. (And they're certainly not nothing).

They're something.

 

[Guettel]

If you're asking to prove a negative, that's logically ridiculous.

I'll try to say this more slowly: No-one has ever demonstrated any audible effects in electronics that isn't trivially measurable. 50+ years. No-one.

So what. They may be tomorrow.

There's not a single thing isn't demonstrated until it is.

If you're making logically ridiculous claims (which you yourself admit to), I'd recommend you stop.

 

[Mart68]

Asking for evidence of a claim in a forum that purports to be scientific makes me a troll?

"There is absolutely no audible phenomenon that isn't trivially measurable." is what he said.

If it's such a silly thing to claim, then stop claiming it.

In which case, the only defensible conclusion is that measurements cannot be said to be everything. (And they're certainly not nothing).

They're something.

It's not a claim it is a statement that is true within the current scientific paradigm.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

So what. They may be tomorrow.

There's not a single thing isn't demonstrated until it is.

If you're making logically ridiculous claims (which you yourself admit to), I'd recommend you stop.

Thank you. I got a belly ache.
But seriously, until that day, can we accept what we know so far?!
SIY is correct, in Electronics at least that book is closed, perhaps in speakers and headphones, there maybe things still to be discovered.

 

[thecheapseats]

I've reached the end of this thread!

perhaps we can measure it... )

 

[voodooless]

So what. They may be tomorrow.

Why would that be a reasonable assumption?

 

[bodhi]

Yeah, it's a troll.

But there is stereotype in internet debates of somebody, usually youngster, who discovers that proving of non-existence is impossible and this blows his mind. He then goes on throwing that around like a new toy until he either grows up or somebody can make him understand why there are such things as "plausible deniability".

 

[VQR]

So what. They may be tomorrow.

There's not a single thing isn't demonstrated until it is.

If you're making logically ridiculous claims (which you yourself admit to), I'd recommend you stop.

People keep telling and showing you what's been demonstrated, you just don't believe it. If you find a difference in audio electronics that we can't measure, that would be constructive. Decades of highly scrutinized testing suggest that possibility to be unlikely. Willy nilly invoking unknown unknowns is humorous at best, unproductive at worst.

 

[Guettel]

in Electronics at least that book is closed,

You have evidence for this?

 

[Guettel]

Yeah, it's a troll.

But there is stereotype in internet debates of somebody, usually youngster, who discovers that proving of non-existence is impossible and this blows his mind. He then goes on throwing that around like a new toy until he either grows up or somebody can make him understand why there are such things as "plausible deniability".

Ad hominems are the last refuge of people who can't provide evidence for their points.

 

[Guettel]

Why would that be a reasonable assumption?

Nothing is more reasonable than not claiming to know the unknowable (i.e. what the future will bring).

 

[Guettel]

It's not a claim it is a statement that is true within the current scientific paradigm.

Then present evidence that it's true.

 

[voodooless]

Nothing is more reasonable than not claiming to know the unknowable (i.e. what the future will bring).

That’s not what this is thought. Nobody is making that claim. This is a question about how reasonable it is to assume that tomorrow some new discovery is made in audio by a valid listening test that cannot be trivially explained by the measurements we can already do?

If it’s reasonable, what would be the actual reason? Why tomorrow and not in the last 50 + years?

 

[SIY]

Nothing is more reasonable than not claiming to know the unknowable (i.e. what the future will bring).

Ah, Russell's Teapot. Nothing like the classics.

 

[Guettel]

That’s not what this is thought. Nobody is making that claim. This is a question about how reasonable it is to assume that tomorrow some new discovery is made in audio by a valid listening test that cannot be trivially explained by the measurements we can already do?

If it’s reasonable, what would be the actual reason? Why tomorrow and not in the last 50 + years?

Because new understanding and technology comes along every day and we learn new things we didn't know yesterday.