Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[bodhi]

In over half a century of the existence of faith-based audio, no-one has ever demonstrated the audibility of anything not trivially measurable. Not once. Ever. This despite constant claims of audible differences where none exist and a niche industry catering to this nonsense.

In addition to that, there is insurmountable evidence of different biases affecting human perception. We also know that there is clear monetary motivation for manufacturers, dealers and magazines to talk about these mysterious, non-measurable differences. We know, that "serious" hobbyists want so very hard that their favorite pastime will never be "solved" and there would be clearly definable criteria for the level of seriousness of ones hobbyism such as money spent on gimmicks or claimed ability to hear difference between power cords.

So we have pretty much nothing going for unmeasurable things affecting sound and vast amounts of facts against it. There will never be final evidence about non-existence of unmeasurable variables, but the case against them is so strong that it's almost insulting to hear people still demanding others to take them seriously and avoid criticism.

 

[VQR]

Banality is always complex.
So this thread will never end.
An another thread about the Topping E30 II has already reached the DAC warming up for three days and the very Soviet conclusion "if you don't like the E30, it means you have stepped on the shaky ground of opportunism subjectivism".
And it happened at the same time

Measurements are a design tool.
Declared technical parameters are a marketing tool.
Honesty of the manufacturer is compliance with the declared technical parameters.
The perception of the user is her purely personal matter.
Dat klopt!

Everything else is empty words, because understanding the conditions and results of measurements requires deep professionalism in the applied field.
At worst, on the basis of this fundamental misunderstanding, something like the Soviet system is being built, in which the only correct thing is what the Party (incomprehensible measurements) said.
And all that a powerless (because Topping's business model backed up by some beautiful graphs made the user so) and ignorant user can do is warm up the DAC for three days. User can also write curse words on any nearby fence (the internet is the closest fence you can write something on).

This is also not new.
In a country with the highest level of education (according to the Party) tens of millions put water cans in front of the TV where the completely insane swindler Alan Chumak was speaking.

Why do you like so many others resort to calling measurements the tool of some 'Party?' 'Cult' is the more prominent buzzword but of course you had to envoke some vague idea of an overarching cabal of people enforcing draconic and harmful ideology.

All the measurements provided on ASR only serve to show if a product is fundamentally broken or not. The only 'Party' or 'cult' that ensnares people in audio is the snake oil cabal.

Every day there is some troll brainwashed by unproven ideas of cables sounding different or how two transparent DAC's have a different sound! Still, when these same trolls honestly compare without peeking at which is used, none have proven there to be a real audible difference! The most honest will be humbled and accept the decades-proven conclusion that our brains put placebo between these gadgets and our ears.

Those who most stand to gain from proving their gadgets improve audio refuse to provide evidence that would challenge what we know. The manufacturers, distributors, and dealers resort to us vs them subjectivism, positing themselves as bodhisattva who will lead to audio nirvana.

They'll say everybody but themselves engage in cult practices to drum up sale: if I had a nickel for everytime I read how measurements are paid for to prop up Chinese brands, I'd be a millionaire. There's seldom that same scrutiny when TAS, Stereophile, and other publications are funded by ad revenue by more established Western brands. Projection is the name of the game!

 

[Guettel]

In over half a century of the existence of faith-based audio, no-one has ever demonstrated the audibility of anything not trivially measurable. Not once. Ever. This despite constant claims of audible differences where none exist and a niche industry catering to this nonsense.

That's interesting trivia.

But what is the scientific evidence for your claim?

 

[Guettel]

There will never be final evidence about non-existence of unmeasurable variables,

Exactly. So you should stop making the claim. Especially in a "science" forum.

 

[VQR]

That's interesting trivia.

But what is the scientific evidence for your claim?

There's several listening tests mentioned and linked in this other thread.

It's not exhaustive, but it's a good starting point if you want the prominent examples.

 

[voodooless]

It's not exhaustive

That’s the whole problem. It always gives you a cop-out to call it a bad argument, without having to prove the opposite: show a single counter example. Because if there is one thing @Guettel will not do, is show a single counter example.

 

[SIY]

That's interesting trivia.

But what is the scientific evidence for your claim?

If you're asking to prove a negative, that's logically ridiculous.

I'll try to say this more slowly: No-one has ever demonstrated any audible effects in electronics that isn't trivially measurable. 50+ years. No-one.

 

[bodhi]

Exactly. So you should stop making the claim. Especially in a "science" forum.

You are a troll, right?

If not, then I don't think anybody has made the claim that it can be proven with 100% certainty that there cannot be a variable that cannot be measured that is also audible. It would be silly.

Thing is that this is not a philosophy forum. If you want to have high school debate about the essence of truth I'm sure you find a better place for it. We are still dealing with the real world. And in this real world we have no evidence of these variables but we have huge mountains of facts backing alternative explanations for subjective experiences that don't follow the science.

Every time you get of bed you start interacting with the world based on probabilities. You couldn't get anything done if you start wondering if you might fall upwards to outer space when you leave your house. But for some reason people throw common sense away in specific contexts. I can understand it better in case of religions for example, but with pieces of power cord?

 

[fpitas]

Eventually we'll be asked to prove every tenet of science here. Which is only right and reasonable

 

[fpitas]

 

[IAtaman]

That's interesting trivia.

But what is the scientific evidence for your claim?

Here you go. Any other questions?

 

[IAtaman]

I'll try to say this more slowly: No-one has ever demonstrated any audible effects in electronics that isn't trivially measurable. 50+ years. No-one.

I have one word for you. White space collapsing. Ok three words. Extra spaces you put are collapsed into a single space by the browser by default and presented as single space, unless it is instructed not to do so specifically. You can always use the CODE tag to make multiple spaces to show. Let me say this more slowly.

 

[SIY]

I have one word for you. White space collapsing. Ok three words. Extra spaces you put are collapsed into a single space by the browser by default and presented as single space, unless it is not instructed not to do so specifically.. You can always use the CODE tag to make multiple spaces to show. Let me say this more slowly.

I'm lazy. And it just didn't seem worth it. But seriously, thanks for the new knowledge for me.

 

[voodooless]

You can always use the CODE tag to make multiple spaces to show. Let me say this more slowly.

But it’s the part after this that should be said slowly

 

[IAtaman]

But it’s the part after this that should be said slowly

I am lazy too.

 

[DonR]

Seems that Russell's Teapot is alive and well and continues its orbit around the Sun... somewhere.

 

[voodooless]

I am lazy too.

Aren’t we all

 

[ahofer]

Seems that Russell's Teapot is alive and well and continues its orbit around the Sun... somewhere.

 

[IAtaman]

Seems that Russell's Teapot is alive and well and continues its orbit around the Sun... somewhere.

I hear it is broken by a dragon and she is hiding in a garage somewhere.

 

[DonR]

I hear it is broken by a dragon and she is hiding in a garage somewhere.

I cannot disprove your claim and therefore accept it wholeheartedly.