Marantz CD6007 sounded bad - advice wanted for new cd player

[MAB]

Ok, I'll try to address your actual question - an explanation for why your Marantz system sounded so different. Assuming nothing else (source, speakers) changed.

You have already confirmed that the difference is not due to filters in the Marantz DAC.

You describe the difference as "warm and muddy". That indicates change to the FR and added distortion.

Marantz is well designed and made gear. As pointed out earlier, Marantz gear does roll off the treble slightly so that could explain some 'warmth' although you have already discounted that in your filter comment.

I am left with two options;
One of your Marantz components was broken.

Or, perception bias - you knew that you changed something so you heard a difference when there was none. That applies to what your husband heard too - we give each other subconscious cues that influence each other.

I can't think of anything else that does not rely on magical thinking.

Combining the descriptions "*horrible*" plus "warm and muddy", leads to the conclusion OP hooked the CD player up to the phono inputs.

 

[Leon74]

Ok, I'll try to address your actual question - an explanation for why your Marantz system sounded so different. Assuming nothing else (source, speakers) changed.

You have already confirmed that the difference is not due to filters in the Marantz DAC.

You describe the difference as "warm and muddy". That indicates change to the FR and added distortion.

Marantz is well designed and made gear. As pointed out earlier, Marantz gear does roll off the treble slightly so that could explain some 'warmth' although you have already discounted that in your filter comment.

I am left with two options;
One of your Marantz components was broken.

Or, perception bias - you knew that you changed something so you heard a difference when there was none. That applies to what your husband heard too - we give each other subconscious cues that influence each other.

I can't think of anything else that does not rely on magical thinking.

Nothing else changed, unless that particular night they sent me green instead of gray electricity or the other way around. Lunar phases and stellar constellations are beyond my control, too, obviously.
I'm afraid we are not going to find a credible explanation. I have no reason to believe the devices malfunctioned, nor the amp, nor the cd player.
Perception bias? I don't think so. The difference in sound with the old receiver and cd players was too big.

As for the statement that "all amplifiers sound the same " that people seem to propagate here, I am not sure if that is true. I heard a Luxman, a Sony and an Akai. The Luxman and Sony were soundwise very close, the Akai had a warmer, less neutral, (though not muddy) sound.
Perception bias? Maybe. Until now I have seen no big studies, just a test from the eighties with serious methodological flaws and indirect conclusions why all amps should sound the same. I am not saying that is not true, I am just saying there is no good evidence backing that claim (nor is there good evidence for claims stating the contrary).

As for all DAC's producing the same sound: No, that's just nonsense. I cannot distinguish between my old Philips and Akai player listening to them, but my husband's Sony cd player just sounds bad compared to the two other players, and though the Sony receiver's analog sound is good, the digital one isn't.

 

[Leon74]

I think Leon is reading too many audio magazines. And using a quote from an Audio Brand "guru" or whomever proves nothing. What's next a quote from a cable company spokesman? Properly operating digital components (CD, DAC) as well as Solid State amps all sound the same. Of course audio brand reps are going to say their components sound different (better). Thats the sales pitch. And the mags have to agree to keep the ad revenue coming in. You dont bite the hand that feeds you

Never read any audio magazine, lol.

 

[Leon74]

Combining the descriptions "*horrible*" plus "warm and muddy", leads to the conclusion OP hooked the CD player up to the phono inputs.

Nice try, but I'm not a newbie and my receiver has no phono input

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Nothing else changed, unless that particular night they sent me green instead of gray electricity or the other way around. Lunar phases and stellar constellations are beyond my control, too, obviously.
I'm afraid we are not going to find a credible explanation. I have no reason to believe the devices malfunctioned, nor the amp, nor the cd player.
Perception bias? I don't think so. The difference in sound with the old receiver and cd players was too big.

As for the statement that "all amplifiers sound the same " that people seem to propagate here, I am not sure if that is true. I heard a Luxman, a Sony and an Akai. The Luxman and Sony were soundwise very close, the Akai had a warmer, less neutral, (though not muddy) sound.
Perception bias? Maybe. Until now I have seen no big studies, just a test from the eighties with serious methodological flaws and indirect conclusions why all amps should sound the same. I am not saying that is not true, I am just saying there is no good evidence backing that claim (nor is there good evidence for claims stating the contrary).

As for all DAC's producing the same sound: No, that's just nonsense. I cannot distinguish between my old Philips and Akai player listening to them, but my husband's Sony cd player just sounds bad compared to the two other players, and though the Sony receiver's analog sound is good, the digital one isn't.

What has been reliably demonstrated is that the differences that people can hear between two line-level audio electronic devices disappear once output voltage levels are identical. But there are caveats to this position - 1) there should be no significant deviance on frequency response, noise or distortion between the two devices; 2) both devices need to be operating in their designed comfort zone; 3) digital devices must use the same reconstruction filters (and cope properly with inter-sample overs); 4) the listeners don't peek at the devices and wiring being tested and the tester doesn't peek either.

The above is true for properly designed DACs, preamplifiers and power amplifiers BUT more care is needed with power amplifiers to ensure they can handle complex (reactive) loads, the devices do not run out of voltage or current and can recover quickly from impulses

 

[Leon74]

What has been reliably demonstrated is that the differences that people can hear between two line-level audio electronic devices disappear once output voltage levels are identical. But there are caveats to this position - 1) there should be no significant deviance on frequency response, noise or distortion between the two devices; 2) both devices need to be operating in their designed comfort zone; 3) digital devices must use the same reconstruction filters (and cope properly with inter-sample overs); 4) the listeners don't peek at the devices and wiring being tested and the tester doesn't peek either.

The above is true for properly designed DACs, preamplifiers and power amplifiers BUT more care is needed with power amplifiers to ensure they can handle complex (reactive) loads, the devices do not run out of voltage or current and can recover quickly from impulses

Would you say a CD player from the early nineties could sound quite differently from one you can buy nowadays?

 

[JeremyFife]

I've done my

Nothing else changed, unless that particular night they sent me green instead of gray electricity or the other way around. Lunar phases and stellar constellations are beyond my control, too, obviously.
I'm afraid we are not going to find a credible explanation. I have no reason to believe the devices malfunctioned, nor the amp, nor the cd player.
Perception bias? I don't think so. The difference in sound with the old receiver and cd players was too big.

As for the statement that "all amplifiers sound the same " that people seem to propagate here, I am not sure if that is true. I heard a Luxman, a Sony and an Akai. The Luxman and Sony were soundwise very close, the Akai had a warmer, less neutral, (though not muddy) sound.
Perception bias? Maybe. Until now I have seen no big studies, just a test from the eighties with serious methodological flaws and indirect conclusions why all amps should sound the same. I am not saying that is not true, I am just saying there is no good evidence backing that claim (nor is there good evidence for claims stating the contrary).

As for all DAC's producing the same sound: No, that's just nonsense. I cannot distinguish between my old Philips and Akai player listening to them, but my husband's Sony cd player just sounds bad compared to the two other players, and though the Sony receiver's analog sound is good, the digital one isn't.

I've done my best, I've given you options based on electrical engineering and psychology.

Quick note that I agree that not all Amps sound the same. However, all competent amps operating within their design thresholds (not clipping, not dealing with a difficult loads) do sound essentially the same.

Find an explanation that works for you - but do yourself the simple service of making sure it's based on facts and backed up by evidence.

I'd be interested in what you find.

Good luck

 

[JeremyFife]

Would you say a CD player from the early nineties could sound quite differently from one you can buy nowadays?

As a transport, no.
Considering the DAC too, perhaps but not by much

 

[Leon74]

I've done my

I've done my best, I've given you options based on electrical engineering and psychology.

Quick note that I agree that not all Amps sound the same. However, all competent amps operating within their design thresholds (not clipping, not dealing with a difficult loads) do sound essentially the same.

Find an explanation that works for you - but do yourself the simple service of making sure it's based on facts and backed up by evidence.

I'd be interested in what you find.

Good luck

Thank you, Jeremy! My presumption is that the older dacs and filters of the early years of CD produced a different sound. Would be nice if someone could confirm that.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Would you say a CD player from the early nineties could sound quite differently from one you can buy nowadays?

Interesting question. I'd have to say "it depends". As a transport, there should be no difference. But, DAC-wise there's a lot more choice these days on filter settings. In the early 90s, solutions were emerging which were one-bit with noise shaping vs oversampled R2R designs. But there were only fixed, and possibly inadequate, reconstruction filters. We also now know more about inter-sample overs. (Ironically, the first generation of 16-bit non-oversampling players handled these OK.) So, there are quite a lot of variations in terms of DAC "competence".

I'd be more comfortable comparing something from the 2000s, with adequate headroom and excellent reconstruction filter.

 

[Leon74]

Interesting question. I'd have to say "it depends". As a transport, there should be no difference. But, DAC-wise there's a lot more choice these days on filter settings. In the early 90s, solutions were emerging which were one-bit with noise shaping vs oversampled R2R designs. But there were only fixed, and possibly inadequate, reconstruction filters. We also now know more about inter-sample overs. (Ironically, the first generation of 16-bit non-oversampling players handled these OK.) So, there are quite a lot of variations in terms of DAC "competence".

I'd be more comfortable comparing something from the 2000s, with adequate headroom and excellent reconstruction filter.

My old Akai CD-27 proudly mentions on the front panel "Advanced interpolative dual D/A converter"

Unfortunately I have nothing from the 2000s to compare with, but next week a Cambridge audio ACX 35 will arrive. I'm very eager to compare it to the Akai and the (also old) Philips.

 

[Sal1950]

Combining the descriptions "*horrible*" plus "warm and muddy", leads to the conclusion OP hooked the CD player up to the phono inputs.

For ANY CD player to fit the description of sounding "horrible" something either with the player or it's interface
with the gear after it is "horribly" wrong. When used from their analog outputs there may be very subtle differences between
properly performing decks but none so drastic as to describe this, no matter how discriminating the listeners values.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

My old Akai CD-27 proudly mentions on the front panel "Advanced interpolative dual D/A converter"

Unfortunately I have nothing from the 2000s to compare with, but next week a Cambridge audio ACX 35 will arrive. I'm very eager to compare it to the Akai and the (also old) Philips.

I recommend reading some of the tests that @NTTY has recently done. They are heroically running very high accuracy tests on vintage CD players. The general results suggest (with the exception of inter-sample overs and some R2R desigs) that many players over the last few decades were perfectly up to the job of playing CDs.

 

[Leon74]

For ANY CD player to fit the description of sounding "horrible" something either with the player or it's interface
with the gear after it is "horribly" wrong. When used from their analog outputs there may be very subtle differences between
properly performing decks but none so drastic as to describe this, no matter how discriminating the listeners values.

Well, "horrible" maybe was an exaggeration, that's why I don't think anything technical was amiss but the new Marantz amp and cd player definitely were not an upgrade but a downgrade compared to my old amp and cd players.
Maybe it's just taste, maybe the old dacs/players were a bit brighter or had a more neutral sound.
The old set up has big floor standers connected. My husband built them himself. Until about a year ago I never used the setup much. I preferred the warmer sound of a Philips micro set over his big loudspeakers that even seemed to hurt my ears a bit at normal volume levels. Yet, a year ago I started listening to cd's with the old Sony amp, Akai/Philips cd player and his loudspeakers, and after 7-14 days I got used to it.
When we tried the new Marantz set up, the sound turned out to be muddy, dampened, without the clarity from the old devices. I hadn't expected that. After so many years with new devices coming out every year, I had expected something better or at least similar, certainly not worse.

 

[NTTY]

A while ago I bought the Marantz CD6007 and matching amplifier and to be honest, it sounded *horrible*. I sent it back.

Hi,
Unless defective, the CD player is a good performer.
I agree the OS filters could do better with CD Audio, but it’s unlikely to sound horrible, unless (again) the artifacts at high frequencies generate an issue with the amplifier and/or speakers.
Did you try the different filters?
Did you try with files of higher sampling rate?

 

[Leon74]

Hi,
Unless defective, the CD player is a good performer.
I agree the OS filters could do better with CD Audio, but it’s unlikely to sound horrible, unless (again) the artifacts at high frequencies generate an issue with the amplifier and/or speakers.
Did you try the different filters?
Did you try with files of higher sampling rate?

Well, "horrible" maybe was an exaggeration but it clearly lacked the clarity/transparency/neutrality of CD. It was more like a cd player and amplifier tuned to resemble vinyl.
It might perform well in measurements but the "warm" muddy sound lacked details. Compared to my old amp and cd players.

I only tried it with CD's. Mostly classical.
I noticed minimal difference between the filters. Not sure if I could hear the difference at all.

 

[unpluggged]

Nice try

No need to be so argumentative. People are still trying to help you out despite your attitude.

 

[Sal1950]

The old set up has big floor standers connected. My husband built them himself. Until about a year ago I never used the setup much. I preferred the warmer sound of a Philips micro set over his big loudspeakers that even seemed to hurt my ears a bit at normal volume levels. Yet, a year ago I started listening to cd's with the old Sony amp, Akai/Philips cd player and his loudspeakers, and after 7-14 days I got used to it.
When we tried the new Marantz set up, the sound turned out to be muddy, dampened, without the clarity from the old devices. I hadn't expected that. After so many years with new devices coming out every year, I had expected something better or at least similar, certainly not worse.

Your describing different sound qualities to various components changed willy nilly in a system including speakers.
The truth is modern electronics such as CD players and amplifiers sound very much the same with only VERY subtle possible differences and need to be auditioned under very strict controls if any real differences are to be detected. Doing so with your eyes open is without value.
Reliable sound observations can only be made when a single component is changed at a time, and listened to under double blind, level matched (within a 0.2 db or better" conditions.

 

[NTTY]

Well, "horrible" maybe was an exaggeration but it clearly lacked the clarity/transparency/neutrality of CD.

Unlikely, considered measurements and me listening to it.

It was more like a cd player and amplifier tuned to resemble vinyl.

?

It might perform well in measurements but the "warm" muddy sound lacked details. Compared to my old amp and cd players.

Very unlikely.

I only tried it with CD's. Mostly classical.
I noticed minimal difference between the filters. Not sure if I could hear the difference at all.

I could not either. At my age, high frequency attenuation related to filter selection were of no influence to my ears.

 

[Leon74]

Your describing different sound qualities to various components changed willy nilly in a system including speakers.
The truth is modern electronics such as CD players and amplifiers sound very much the same with only VERY subtle possible differences and need to be auditioned under very strict controls if any real differences are to be detected. Doing so with your eyes open is without value.
Reliable sound observations can only be made when a single component is changed at a time, and listened to under double blind, level matched (within a 0.2 db or better" conditions.

No, nothing was changed "willy nilly" if you read well: I always used the same speakers. What changed was the old Sony amp with an Akai cd player on one hand, and a Marantz Stereo 70s and a CD6007 on the other hand.
The difference between these different sets (with same loudspeakers) was HUGE.
As for reliable sound observations: My husband is a music teacher and his hearing is trained, those sound differences he heard just like me absolutely were not very subtle.
But again, maybe it's caused because there is about 30 years between the old and the new devices.