Marantz AV7705 Home Theater Processor Review

[Martin_320]

I see that the 5ch version of the AT6000 costs four times the price of an AV7705 AVP. Clearly they are not even remotely appealing to the same market / audience.

 

[peng]

I see that the 5ch version of the AT6000 costs four times the price of an AV7705 AVP. Clearly they are not even remotely appealing to the same market / audience.

Another example, how about the 200 WPC rated Rotel RMB-1585 for $3,000?
http://www.rotel.com/en-ca/product/rmb-1585

INPUT SENSITIVITY
Line Level Inputs (RCA): 1.9V
Line Level Inputs (XLR): 3.8V

Not quite 2 V, but just to allow for a reasonable 1.5 dB headroom would bring the requirement to 2.25 V (RCA), or 4.5 V (XLR).

It seems that no matter how hard I tried I could not explain it well enough. Hopefully someone else will chime in and do a better job than me.

 

[Martin_320]

Another example, how about the 200 WPC rated Rotel RMB-1585 for $3,000?

That would appear to be the modern-day successor to the RMB-1095 !
And its specs are almost identical.
By the way, according to the specs at the end of this PDF:
http://www.rotel.com/sites/default/files/rmb-1585-bluraydefinition-feb14.pdf
It says: "Preamp Output Level/Output Impedance 1.5V / 470 Ohms"
...which is a bit confusing, because the doc also states those same 1.9V (RCA) & 3.8V (XLR) input sensitivities that you gave above.
Peng -- Maybe you know why these values are different?

From my point of view (and as a useful case-study for other readers here on ASR), the main takeaways from our discussion are:

~ The Marantz AV7705 => Rotel RMB-1075 => Tannoy speaker component chain seems to be quite well matched.
~ The Marantz can drive the Rotel all the way to its max output wattage into the 8-Ohm Tannoys, and in doing so the AVP won't transgress its own clipping threshold (and the AV7705's volume level won't need to be as high as 82 for dynamic content - music & films etc.).
~ The Marantz' SINAD performance when driving the RMB-1075 will be better than Amir's results (92.5dB @ 2.35Vrms) because the Marantz won't need to put out any more than 1V via the unbalanced RCAs (equivalent to only 2V via XLRs).
~ With more powerful power amps / or those with less gain than the RMB-1075, then SINAD performance will fall slightly at the highest volume settings.

There is one more thing that shouldn't be forgotten: HT equipment like this is meant to be used in conjunction with a large powered subwoofer, ie. using the AVP's digital bass management crossover to divert a lot of the low-freq load away from the AVP and the main amp. (Thus greatly increasing the dynamic headroom in both the AVP and main amp).
In my case I'm cutting the bass below 100Hz from the AVP's main five channels and diverting that to my 500W rms (1kW 'peak-to-peak' power) sub. This further reduces the AVP's output Voltage requirements for the five main amp channels -- since the low frequencies are more power-consuming than the mids and highs.

In terms of available SPLs, I think I have plenty on-tap:
~ Five main channels @ 120W rms per-channel (even with 'all-channels-driven') = up to 600W rms continuous (no clipping)
~ plus 500W rms subwoofer dedicated to bass.
~ That's a total of 1.1kW rms continuous power available in my 6m x 5m listening space -- with no clipping either in the Marantz AVP or in the downstream amplification

@ Amir, when testing these units in future, it would be really useful to see the respective frequency-response plots at the following sample rates:
44.1kHz; 96kHz and 192kHz -- using either the HDMI or SPDIF input, and with the AVR/AVP in "Pure Direct". This would also enable us to see how the 'slow/fast' DAC reconstruction filter setting of the respective AVP affects their post-Nyquist HF noise slopes at each of those respective sample rates -- and thus how high up above the human audio spectrum that noise is pushed to. The other thing to measure is DAC pre/post-ringing. eg. A 'slow' reconstruction filter (which you seem to interpret as some kind of design error with Marantz products) does have audio benefits too: ie. It typically results in less ringing and better impulse response etc. (compared with an AVR DAC that has a fast/steep reconstruction filter slope -- where you'd have more ringing and inferior impulse response).
AVR DSP functions: Another testing criteria that would be useful to see when you are evaluating an AVR/AVP is the effect on the frequency spectrum when DSP functions (such as bass-management; graphic-equalizer and digital 'tone control') are separately engaged.
Bass Management: I can say that the bass-management on the Marantz AVP is lightyears better than what I experienced with my previous Onkyo AVP. It just sounds just so much more seamlessly integrated (sonically) with the Marantz. It would be useful to know what's going on 'under the hood' in terms of bass management and the HPF/LPF crossover slopes etc.

Peng, overall, I think get what you are saying now. Thanks for taking the time to explain

 

[jomark911]

In terms of available SPLs, I think I have plenty on-tap:
~ Five main channels @ 120W rms per-channel (even with 'all-channels-driven') = up to 600W rms continuous (no clipping)
~ plus 500W rms subwoofer dedicated to bass.
~ That's a total of 1.1kW rms continuous power available in my 6m x 5m listening space -- with no clipping either in the Marantz AVP or in the downstream amplification


Sorry if I sound a little offending , but I run a 7x150wrms , on surrounds and center , 2x300wrms on mains L,R , and a beefy 2x800wrms on two subs.
Do the math.
Sure my room is quite larger than yours , like 12mx5m , +a 3mx4m, all of it listening space.
It comes close to 80 sq mtrs .

 

[ChrisF]

So are there ANY AV Pre/Pro's that do measure well?

 

[Martin_320]

In terms of available SPLs, I think I have plenty on-tap:
~ Five main channels @ 120W rms per-channel (even with 'all-channels-driven') = up to 600W rms continuous (no clipping)
~ plus 500W rms subwoofer dedicated to bass.
~ That's a total of 1.1kW rms continuous power available in my 6m x 5m listening space -- with no clipping either in the Marantz AVP or in the downstream amplification


Sorry if I sound a little offending , but I run a 7x150wrms , on surrounds and center , 2x300wrms on mains L,R , and a beefy 2x800wrms on two subs.
Do the math.
Sure my room is quite larger than yours , like 12mx5m , +a 3mx4m, all of it listening space.
It comes close to 80 sq mtrs .

I'm not in the slightest offended. However, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?
You have a bigger room and thus more room for amps and speakerage.
Furthermore, you have much more cubic volume to pressurise.
~So let's say for you approx 80sqm * 3m = 240 cubic metres -- assuming for you a 3m ceiling height (maybe more height)?;
~Versus my listening space of ((5*6)+(3*2.5))*2.5 = about 94 cubic meters

My main amp will deliver un-clipped 130W rms into all five 8ohm speakers:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/rotel-rmb-1075-5-channel-power-amplifier-measurments
(ps. It can also deliver more than 200W rms un-clipped into five 4ohm speakers)

So with these figures (assuming 8 ohm speakers) the apples-to-apples math is actually very close:
You can pressurize your room with about 13.54 watts per cubic meter, whereas my arrangement manages about 12.3 watts per cubic metre.
ie less than 10% difference.

Moreover, the amps powering your mains should at the very least be exactly the same spec (max unclipped power, and also the gain / sensitivity gradient) as your centre channel's. But I see they're not.
And what about your pre-pro -- are you using the AV7705?
As we've seen in Amir's exhaustive testing, most multichannel AVR/pre-pros cannot put out more than 2 volts rms (through XLRs outputs) without themselves clipping.
So where does this leave your 300W L&R amps ? (which are likely to need more input rms voltage than the nominal ~2V rms from most m-ch preamps).

Finally, if I would play an "EDM" electronic dance CD (in which typically all the songs are driving max 0dB all of the time), then I can easily get it to dance-club loudness levels without even needing to turn the AVP's volume all the way up to its 0dB pre-clipping point. Needless to say, my neighbours would complain if I got anywhere close to that level of loudness.

 

[peng]

As we've seen in Amir's exhaustive testing, most multichannel AVR/pre-pros cannot put out more than 2 volts rms (through XLRs outputs) without themselves clipping.

That doesn't sound right, just a quick check on my record keeping table I found the following that can output about 4 V balanced/XLR with SINAD > 90 in Amir's 1 kHz test using digital input.

The following measured >90 dB, both Ch1 and Ch2, at approx. 4 V output XLR:
Emotiva RMC-1............. 100.001/99.727
Emotiva XMC-1............. 96.784/98.803
Monoprice HTP............. 96.646/97.252
NAD M17V2................... 96.062/96.324
Lyngdorg TDAI-3400.. 94.082/94.42
Marantz AV8805........... 91.795/92.101

Two did not make all the way to 90 dB at approx. 4 V output XLR, but not "clipping" as such.
Arcam AV40.................... 89.376/91.063
Onkyo RZ5100............... 82.828/82.831

And the Marantz AV7705 did manage 92.543/92.12 at reduced output of 2.35/2.36 V XLR

So from what I could see, all of the pre/pros Amir measured can output more than 2 Vrms via XLRs without clipping. Okay the Onkyo only managed 82.8 dB but that's 0.0072%, I don't think that would be considered "clipping" even by Amir's standard.

The Marantz AV7705 is the only one that measured lower than 80 dB at near 4 V XLS, but still, at 75.326/74.55 dB or 0.017/0.0187%, its may still be below the threshold of audibility, under some conditions and to some people anyway.

I might have missed 1 or 2, if not, then only 1 (the AV7705) out of 9 tested measured in the mid 70's at 4V XLR, but still in the 90's at your reference of 2 Vrms.

 

[Martin_320]

That doesn't sound right, just a quick check on my record keeping table I found the following that can output about 4 V balanced/XLR with SINAD > 90 in Amir's 1 kHz test using digital input.

I just checked the products you've listed above, and based on reading Amir's own tests here, I certainly would not go with Emotiva, Monoprice, NAD, or Lyngdor brands.
None of them inspire confidence and those products each suffer from some sort of deal-breaking technical anomaly.
So, if I needed to drive bigger amps (than my present one), and if I had to choose one of the ones you listed, then it would have to be the Marantz AV8805. But first I would like to see a SINAD test done at its nominally rated 2.0-2.4Vrms. (Amir's test only shows what that AVP can do when pushed out to around 4Vrms).

 

[rccarguy]

I just checked the products you've listed above, and based on reading Amir's own tests here, I certainly would not go with Emotiva, Monoprice, NAD, or Lyngdor brands.
None of them inspire confidence and those products each suffer from some sort of deal-breaking technical anomaly.
So, if I needed to drive bigger amps (than my present one), and if I had to choose one of the ones you listed, then it would have to be the Marantz AV8805. But first I would like to see a SINAD test done at its nominally rated 2.0-2.4Vrms. (Amir's test only shows what that AVP can do when pushed out to around 4Vrms).

Av7705 and av8805 tested badly too

 

[Martin_320]

Av7705 and av8805 tested badly too

We only know what the AV8805 is like at 4.1Vrms. And even then it achieved over 91dB SINAD. That's actually quite good. And I suspect that it would be even better when not driven outside its nominal range (ie up to around 2.4Vrms).
As for the AV7705, when Amir tested that AVP at its nominal max output rating (around 2.3Vrms) it exceeded 92dB SINAD. That's not bad either.

And there are other reasons I'd stay with Marantz, such as: the AVP runs cool; it downloads regular software updates; it has built-in HEOS HD music streaming (in my case with Amazon Unlimited); its eARC capability works perfectly with my LG TV; its flexible bass management; it has multichannel pure analog inputs -- eg. for DVDA/SACD players; and with Marantz you have a v large international dealer & support network.

 

[peng]

We only know what the AV8805 is like at 4.1Vrms. And even then it achieved over 91dB SINAD. That's actually quite good. And I suspect that it would be even better when not driven outside its nominal range (ie up to around 2.4Vrms).
As for the AV7705, when Amir tested that AVP at its nominal max output rating (around 2.3Vrms) it exceeded 92dB SINAD. That's not bad either.

And there are other reasons I'd stay with Marantz, such as: the AVP runs cool; it downloads regular software updates; it has built-in HEOS HD music streaming (in my case with Amazon Unlimited); its eARC capability works perfectly with my LG TV; its flexible bass management; and with Marantz you have a v large international dealer & support network.

In my opinion, the AV8805 is good, and Amir did put it on the recommended list. The AV7705 is good too if you match it with power amps with 29 dB gain or higher, and/or rated output well below 200 W into 8 ohms. The 7705 may not be not a good choice if you don't need XLR I/Os and/or you need the flexibility to choose from a larger pool of power amps. In that case you may be better off with a Denon AVR-X3600/3700H or higher models (always the same as Marantz aside from the DAC filter and HDAMs), or the SR6014, presumable the SR6015, 7015 too.

 

[Martin_320]

. . .The 7705 may not be not a good choice if you don't need XLR I/Os

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

The unit is equally optimised either:

~ via unbalanced RCAs, in which case output is scaled 0V to 1.2V; or
~ via balanced XLR, in which case it's from -1.2V to + 1.2V (for a total range of 2.4V).

Theory: RCA the voltage is measured between ground and positive while in XLR the voltage is measured between positive and negative pins +2v and -2v with respect to ground. That's why we quote double for XLR.

Also note that the Marantz's "native" mode is unbalanced output. The equivalent Marantz AVRs don't have XLR outputs! They only added XLRs (and doubled the voltage delta) so the AVP version could be physically connected to amps that would only accept XLRs. But if your amp has both XLR and RCA input, and you're using the Marantz AVP, then you're just as good by connecting using the native RCA output.

 

[peng]

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

The unit is equally optimised either:

~ via unbalanced RCAs, in which case output is scaled 0V to 1.2V; or
~ via balanced XLR, in which case it's from -1.2V to + 1.2V (for a total range of 2.4V).

Theory: RCA the voltage is measured between ground and positive while in XLR the voltage is measured between positive and negative pins +2v and -2v with respect to ground. That's why we quote double for XLR.

Also note that the Marantz's "native" mode is unbalanced output. The equivalent Marantz AVRs don't have XLR outputs! They only added XLRs (and doubled the voltage delta) so the AVP version could be physically connected to amps that would only accept XLRs. But if your amp has both XLR and RCA input, and you're using the Marantz AVP, then you're just as good by connecting using the native RCA output.

I simply meant if you don't need XLRs, you can consider Marantz AVRs, that don't come with XLRs. That means there are better choices, or at least values (again, meaning AVRs), than the AV7705 for those who prefer Marantz products. Or put in another way, you are stuck with the AVPs if you must have XLR/balanced. To me, if the interconnects are short, like less than 2 to 3 meters, there is no advantage to use Marantz AVP's XLR especially when their AVPs are not fully balanced from input to output like the Denon AVP-A1HDC1.

If you are interested to see the difference, here's the link to such so called "fully balanced.." scheme:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/denon-avp-a1hdci/design-overview

 

[Martin_320]

Peng, I don't think we can really conclude that Amir's test numbers for the Marantz AVR are better than those of the AVP because he did not use the same method of connection: The AVR was tested using the "unbalanced" RCAs, whereas when he tested the AVP the output went via the additional faux "balanced" XLR stage -- with the associated voltage output doubling etc.
Had he used the unit's native RCA routing, then that would deliver the cleanest and most direct signal path from the DACs to the input of the test equipment.

 

[rccarguy]

We only know what the AV8805 is like at 4.1Vrms. And even then it achieved over 91dB SINAD. That's actually quite good. And I suspect that it would be even better when not driven outside its nominal range (ie up to around 2.4Vrms).
As for the AV7705, when Amir tested that AVP at its nominal max output rating (around 2.3Vrms) it exceeded 92dB SINAD. That's not bad either.

And there are other reasons I'd stay with Marantz, such as: the AVP runs cool; it downloads regular software updates; it has built-in HEOS HD music streaming (in my case with Amazon Unlimited); its eARC capability works perfectly with my LG TV; its flexible bass management; it has multichannel pure analog inputs -- eg. for DVDA/SACD players; and with Marantz you have a v large international dealer & support network.

Both suffer frequency roll off and lots of noise and jitter

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

The unit is equally optimised either:

~ via unbalanced RCAs, in which case output is scaled 0V to 1.2V; or
~ via balanced XLR, in which case it's from -1.2V to + 1.2V (for a total range of 2.4V).

Theory: RCA the voltage is measured between ground and positive while in XLR the voltage is measured between positive and negative pins +2v and -2v with respect to ground. That's why we quote double for XLR.

Also note that the Marantz's "native" mode is unbalanced output. The equivalent Marantz AVRs don't have XLR outputs! They only added XLRs (and doubled the voltage delta) so the AVP version could be physically connected to amps that would only accept XLRs. But if your amp has both XLR and RCA input, and you're using the Marantz AVP, then you're just as good by connecting using the native RCA output.

My amps have XLR. ATI 2000 series.

 

[peng]

whereas when he tested the AVP the output went via the additional faux "balanced" XLR stage -- with the associated voltage output doubling etc.
Had he used the unit's native RCA routing, then that would deliver the cleanest and most direct signal path from the DACs to the input of the test equipment.

I thought he measured both Marantz AVP using XLR. Iirc, he said if balanced outputs were there, he would use them. Where did you get that "he tested the AVP the output went via the additional faux "balanced" XLR stage -- with the associated voltage output doubling etc...."? Link please..

 

[Martin_320]

Yes, he tested the Marantz AVPs using the XLRs.
But XLRs on these units are an additional boosted stage -- which is why I referred to them semi-sarcastically as "faux".
("Faux" is originally a French word which when used in English speech implies: "mimicking" / "emulating"/ "masquerading_as"... etc. .)

 

[peng]

Yes, he tested the Marantz AVPs using the XLRs.
But XLRs on these units are an additional boosted stage -- which is why I referred to them semi-sarcastically as "faux".
("Faux" is originally a French word which when used in English speech implies: "mimicking" / "emulating"/ "masquerading_as"... etc. .)

So you are suggesting that if Amir had used the unbalanced RCA connectors he would have gotten better results?

Did you read the HTHF measurements by any chance? They had the following results for XLRs and RCAs, also at 1 kHz sampling freq 44.1 kHz:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8805-processor-review/

The XLR out actually yielded lower THD+N but it should because it was done at lower output level in terms of gain, that is -6 dB vs the RCA measurements.

Compared to ASR's, that is HTHF's 2 V unbalanced vs ASR's 4 V balanced, a fair comparison I would say, that would be:

0.006709% HTFI's vs 0.0027% ASR's. So if you go with HTFI's SINAD would be 83.5 dB vs Amir's 91.3 dB. That is, using unbalanced, SINAD was lower, though admittedly it is not a sure thing when comparing results of two different bench tests by different reviewers.

The closest comparison between the two test benches would be the one below:

You can see that the results were within about 0.0001%, or +/- 0.5 dB!
The only different condition was HTHF's used 24/96 vs ASR;s 16/44.1.

Still I think that was enough evidence that ASR's use of XLR did not cause the AV8805 results to suffer much, if at all.

As you know, I do consider the AV8805's 91/92 dB SINAD at 4 V pretty good but the fact remains, as measured by two independent reviewers, it could not do better than any of the Denon AVR. Again, I am not drawing any conclusions on anything to do with sound quality, just stating what we know based on HTHF and ASR's measurements.

 

[jomark911]

I'm not in the slightest offended. However, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?
You have a bigger room and thus more room for amps and speakerage.
Furthermore, you have much more cubic volume to pressurise.
~So let's say for you approx 80sqm * 3m = 240 cubic metres -- assuming for you a 3m ceiling height (maybe more height)?;
~Versus my listening space of ((5*6)+(3*2.5))*2.5 = about 94 cubic meters

My main amp will deliver un-clipped 130W rms into all five 8ohm speakers:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/rotel-rmb-1075-5-channel-power-amplifier-measurments
(ps. It can also deliver more than 200W rms un-clipped into five 4ohm speakers)

So with these figures (assuming 8 ohm speakers) the apples-to-apples math is actually very close:
You can pressurize your room with about 13.54 watts per cubic meter, whereas my arrangement manages about 12.3 watts per cubic metre.
ie less than 10% difference.

Moreover, the amps powering your mains should at the very least be exactly the same spec (max unclipped power, and also the gain / sensitivity gradient) as your centre channel's. But I see they're not.
And what about your pre-pro -- are you using the AV7705?
As we've seen in Amir's exhaustive testing, most multichannel AVR/pre-pros cannot put out more than 2 volts rms (through XLRs outputs) without themselves clipping.
So where does this leave your 300W L&R amps ? (which are likely to need more input rms voltage than the nominal ~2V rms from most m-ch preamps).

Finally, if I would play an "EDM" electronic dance CD (in which typically all the songs are driving max 0dB all of the time), then I can easily get it to dance-club loudness levels without even needing to turn the AVP's volume all the way up to its 0dB pre-clipping point. Needless to say, my neighbours would complain if I got anywhere close to that level of loudness.

Sorry my mistake , as I was fooling around. Point I'm trying to make is that sometimes there are other setups better, out there so we have to lay low.
I use a DENON AVP-A1HD, as prepro, and a DENON POA-A1HD for center and surround speakers.
Main L,R are active speakers , powered by three power amps , one 2x300rms for the woofers 2x15" per speaker , one 2x300rms for mids and one 2x160rms for the tweeters and an electronic cross . Sensitivity of the mains is 95db, and they are 8ohms , all units.
Other channels , like center and surrounds are at 90db 8 ohms also. I don't have to have the same amps . It's irrelevant. Amp gain is controlled.
As for amps sensitivity , they all are at 1v , but even if it wasn't , AVP A1HD can output 7,5 v , at preouts or even more , that is not a problem .
Loudness ? easily hit club levels at 120db , without subs. Subs are two boxes with a 15inch woofer on each one powered by a JBL MPX 1200 amp.

 

[Martin_320]

I use a DENON AVP-A1HD, as prepro, and a DENON POA-A1HD for center and surround speakers. ...AVP A1HD can output 7,5 v , at preouts or even more , that is not a problem.

Sounds pretty awesome! By the way, I was always impressed with the fabulous engineering of the original Denon products. And I do recall the AVP-A1HD which is built like a tank.
ps. In the early 2000s I was one of Denon UK's beta testers for the DVD-A11 universal DVDA/SACD player (same machine as the DVD-5900 in the US).
I still have the machine to this day -- which is now connected to the analog multichannel inputs of my Marantz AVP! (Its Denon Link would work well with your Denon AVP -- but I never got the chance to test that particular feature, as my main mission back then was in finding bugs / helping to refine the CD and high-resolution DVDA playback and the bass management).
It's a pity though that "new" Denon doesn't make these kinds of top class products anymore.