Marantz AV7705 Home Theater Processor Review

[peng]

It's a pity though that "new" Denon doesn't make these kinds of top class products anymore.

Not totally though, they still make some expensive two channel stuff such as the $7,000 DCD-SX1 SACD/CD player. You can still grab one of their $7,500 PMA-SX1 limited integrated amp before they stopped making it too. It is only rated 50 WPC into 8 ohm and 100 W into 4 ohms.

 

[Martin_320]

Not totally though, they still make some expensive two channel stuff such as the $7,000 DCD-SX1 SACD/CD player. You can still grab one of their $7,500 PMA-SX1 limited integrated amp before they stopped making it too. It is only rated 50 WPC into 8 ohm and 100 W into 4 ohms.

They're very nice looking products and I'm sure that the combination sounds superb.
50watts actually gets pretty loud and is fine for playing CDs in a normal living room.
We shouldn't get too obsessed with watts -- at least for music.
ps. It would be very nice indeed if Denon would put that kind of engineering into a new up-to-date AVP!

 

[jomark911]

All of us owners were expecting a new AVP 2 , but it never happened , it had to do with atomic power plant failure at fukushima sthat set them back .
I also have the third member of the set the DVD-A1UD, universal player.

 

[peng]

All of us owners were expecting a new AVP 2 , but it never happened , it had to do with atomic power plant failure at fukushima sthat set them back .
I also have the third member of the set the DVD-A1UD, universal player.

I think United Sound probably would not allow Denon to produce an AVP-HD2 to compete with Marantz AVP otherwise one, or both would get hurt. On the AVR side its okay because of the volume, its like Onkyo/Integra. Even on the audiophile integrated amp, Denon is not aggressively marketing theirs in North America.

 

[Martin_320]

All of us owners were expecting a new AVP 2 , but it never happened , it had to do with atomic power plant failure at fukushima sthat set them back .
I also have the third member of the set the DVD-A1UD, universal player.

By the way, there's a poster "DJB of Poole" on another forum who had the AVP-A1HD and has replaced it with the Marantz AV8805 - which he says is "excellent"...
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/de...iversal-player.1048326/page-184#post-56540192

Out of curiosity, if you were looking to buy a replacement now for the (A1HD) would you also be considering at the AV8805?

 

[jomark911]

Yeah I know that guy. We were both on the AVP thread.
8805 might be a good prepro , but nowhere close to the AVP.
There are some other guys that tried other prepros over there and returned them.
Ok some have gone the other way and retired AVP for the newer formats, understandable , some don't, like me.
It's a matter of perspective.

 

[peng]

By the way, there's a poster "DJB of Poole" on another forum who had the AVP-A1HD and has replaced it with the Marantz AV8805 - which he says is "excellent"...
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/de...iversal-player.1048326/page-184#post-56540192

Out of curiosity, if you were looking to buy a replacement now for the (A1HD) would you also be considering at the AV8805?

As Dr. Toole said, if you know which one it is, I don't care what you think.. that was about comparing speakers, let alone electronics! So I put no value in such subjective views from forums and even professional reviewers, as it would most likely vary among people.

 

[peng]

They're very nice looking products and I'm sure that the combination sounds superb.
50watts actually gets pretty loud and is fine for playing CDs in a normal living room.
We shouldn't get too obsessed with watts -- at least for music.
ps. It would be very nice indeed if Denon would put that kind of engineering into a new up-to-date AVP!

Obviously more watts may or may not be needed as it depends so much on so many things. It also depends on how important it is for the individual to be assured that distortions will remain minimal during the highest "peaks" they listen to. Even music could have DR >20 dB
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

For some movies, your amp may output a couple of watts most of the time but during some peaks it could peak to 200 w or more. A few years ago I took some voltage and current measurements using the dragon scene in the Hobbits movie. Even at volume position -20, I was getting 10 V, 2.7 A.
So if I had the volume at 0, my amp have been clipping. I have taken lots of measurements using music as well so I know it it s good thing I don't listen anywhere close to 105 dB peak. Some people do!

 

[Martin_320]

A few years ago I took some voltage and current measurements using the dragon scene in the Hobbits movie. Even at volume position -20, I was getting 10 V, 2.7 A.
So if I had the volume at 0, my amp have been clipping.

What bass-management crossover filter setting did you have on the channel being measured ?

 

[peng]

What bass-management crossover filter setting did you have on the channel being measured ?

For that particular test, I measured the left channel, more details below:
Speaker set to large..............2.7 A
Speaker set to small............. 2.1 A (XO 80 Hz)
Center channel................1.6 A (XO 90 Hz)

For some reason, I didn't measure the SPL, or measured but not recorded.

I found another test record:

Source: Telarc CD-80078 Fanfare for the common man
Player: Not recorded, but it was in 2010 so it must have been the DVD3910 that was use in my HT room at the time.
Bass management: pretty sure none, as I would typically do such test using analog pure direct mode for such tests.

Left channel, Vol -5
AVR-4308CI.........................45 Vpk, 15 Apk, SPL 98 dB (obviously the RS spl meter would have been too slow to capture the real peak spl)
AVR-4308CI+GFA555.......39 Vpk, 12.2 Apk, SPL 102 dB
Also compared it with the Denon driving my Bryston SST2 but could not find the records, its there somewhere, I do remember the results were similar, no surprises there..

SPL meter................................... Radio Shack 330-2055 C weighting fast (0.2 sec bar graph response time according to specs)
Fluke 87V peak response time 250 μs so it probably did capture the peak voltage.
Hioki 3282 for current measurements, it's not going to be accurate for current peaks.

I have taken all sorts of measurements including those I used to compare the demand on left, right and center channels, pre-out voltage vs vol positions for both my Marantz AVP and Denon AVR etc., but my file organization is not the best, so it isn't easy to find anything after a while.

Power was never an issue for me at all because I cannot stand ref level, vol -10 to -15 would be as high as I would ever go, and I sit only 10.5-11 ft from my speakers, so having 225 W on tap is more than enough for me. I just like measuring things so I did it for fun and to satisfy my curiosity only. Looking at the measurements I have taken over the years, I can see the need for high power amps (>300 WPC) for some.

 

[jomark911]

As Dr. Toole said, if you know which one it is, I don't care what you think.. that was about comparing speakers, let alone electronics! So I put no value in such subjective views from forums and even professional reviewers, as it would most likely vary among people.

Well life itself is a subjectivity. What do you expect?

 

[jomark911]

Obviously more watts may or may not be needed as it depends so much on so many things. It also depends on how important it is for the individual to be assured that distortions will remain minimal during the highest "peaks" they listen to. Even music could have DR >20 dB
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

For some movies, your amp may output a couple of watts most of the time but during some peaks it could peak to 200 w or more. A few years ago I took some voltage and current measurements using the dragon scene in the Hobbits movie. Even at volume position -20, I was getting 10 V, 2.7 A.
So if I had the volume at 0, my amp have been clipping. I have taken lots of measurements using music as well so I know it it s good thing I don't listen anywhere close to 105 dB peak. Some people do!

Subjectivity again.
Everything is ,almost subjectivity.
You can't listen at volumes 105db. Some others though surely can.
You don't rule the whole world the same way.
It's a matter of subjectivity. Again.
Off course Dr Toole is right , but subjectivity is ruining the world.
Starve the European from petrol and you'll see something .
Do that to an African ,but with water , and you will see something entirely different.
Starve an American from cola and there you have a perfectly good bomb.
Starve an audiophile from bass and you'll see something else.
Starve a jap from high frequencies and you'll see something else.
We all or almost all know what is right or wrong in audio. We don't listen the same way, we don't even percept the same way.
This how it goes.
Life sucks.

 

[jomark911]

Ps: I don't full around with cables, whatever cable is, it's not my concern.
Just saying.

 

[Sal1950]

Life sucks.

Life is what you make of it and is mostly a glorious trip if you take full advantage of the things that are offered to you.

 

[Martin_320]

Still I think that was enough evidence that ASR's use of XLR did not cause the AV8805 results to suffer much, if at all.

I looked at those examples, but we can't really conclude anything because there are just too many variables, and no 'apples-to-apples' comparison can be made.

It would help readers'decision-making (on how to best connect to an amp), if ASR's testing would inform us, for an AVR/AVP, whether the XLRs are truly balanced or not. And secondly, to test for any differences between the native mode RCA connection vs the voltage-doubled XLR outputs -- if the manufacturer of the unit has provided them. So maybe such testing could be considered at ASR?

Overall though, I think that the 'usefulness' of the measurements on this site is getting better. For example, in recent tests we've been getting more useful info on where the best SINAD range is in relation to the output voltage. With this kind of info we can much better determine which power amps can be best paired with the pre-outs of a given AVR or AVP. In some cases we've seen better SINAD at higher voltages, but in most cases the SINAD is better at lower voltages. There's no point pairing an external power amp that only needs between 0 and 1.2V (unbalanced), with an AVR/AVP which delivers its best SINAD only at 2V or greater but inferior SINAD at between 0 & 1.2V. And vice versa.

But there are still other inconsistencies on this site between one AVR/AVP test and another. For example, in some ASR tests we see a full sample rate plots and other times we don't. With the Marantz products, for example, we only saw the 44.1kHz plot, and accompanying heavy criticism of the so-called 'slow' DAC filter choice and some roll-off between 16 - 20kHz. But that's only at the 44.1kHz CD sample rate. However, a lot of the music that people play is at much high sample rates -- 88.2, 96 and 192kHz. So what happens then? If there's a rolloff at those higher sample rates, then *where* in the spectrum does that occur? And in those cases, does the frequency response become flat between 0 - 20kHz? etc. etc.

 

[jomark911]

But there are still other inconsistencies on this site between one AVR/AVP test and another. For example, in some ASR tests we see a full sample rate plots and other times we don't. With the Marantz products, for example, we only saw the 44.1kHz plot, and accompanying heavy criticism of the so-called 'slow' DAC filter choice and some roll-off between 16 - 20kHz. But that's only at the 44.1kHz CD sample rate. However, a lot of the music that people play is at much high sample rates -- 88.2, 96 and 192kHz. So what happens then? If there's a rolloff at those higher sample rates, then *where* in the spectrum does that occur? And in those cases, does the frequency response become flat between 0 - 20kHz? etc. etc

I don't believe it has to do with the sampling frequency. I suppose it will behave exactly the same no matter what the sampling will be.

 

[Martin_320]

I don't believe it has to do with the sampling frequency. I suppose it will behave exactly the same no matter what the sampling will be.

Actually, for PCM DACs, the reconstruction filter is related to the sample frequency being used. (This is standard Nyquist / Shannon stuff).
The other thing to note is that at higher sample rates you're actually better off with a gentler filter setting because the UHF noise components are so far out from the audible band anyway -- so there is less need for a sharp filter setting at the higher sample rates. That's why DAC manufacturers give the choice.
Ps. Steep filters are also a trade off -- they cause their own problems such as ripple effects and reduced audio impulse response.
Anyway, please let's see on this site the FR plots at the higher sample rates.

 

[peng]

I looked at those examples, but we can't really conclude anything because there are just too many variables, and no 'apples-to-apples' comparison can be made.

I wasn't trying to compare anything, may be I should just clarify my original point and then move on.

I started elaborating on this very point on why some people may like to see pre-out measured to 2V, since your post#234 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...er-processor-review.11359/page-12#post-484120) in which you said:

"...So Amir's graphs are showing results that clearly don't reflect the real world -- they are so far off the scale from what normal people would use an AVP for (and way beyond what the downstream power amps can actually take at their inputs !). For what it's worth, '70' on the volume knob is as loud as I ever need to take the AV7705 / Rotel combo. Mostly I have the volume set at between 40 and 60.. "

And about the consideration of "peaks", iirc, Amir has made this very same point recently, but sort of in a one liner form. So I tried to give some "real world" examples of my own, that won't obviously apply to you or to others. It may however, apply to people who, for whatever reasons, their amps may traverse into output levels, perhaps frequently for some, while only during high peak demand moments for other. Those people may therefore require pre-out voltage of 2 V or even higher to drive their power amps capable of much higher output, especially dynamic output than yours. It is therefore reasonable for ASR to measure pre-out level up to 2 V or even higher. It really has nothing to do with "comparing apple to apple", or concluding on anything, as people do have different setups and requirements.

I am glad that ASR is catering to the need of more people including those who actually need higher power amps for a variety of reasons (and I cited examples). I hope I have made my points clear. If not, that's all I can do anyway, with nothing more to add..

 

[Martin_320]

I wasn't trying to compare anything, may be I should just clarify my original point and then move on.
... I hope I have made my points clear. If not, that's all I can do anyway, with nothing more to add..

Yes, you've made those points several times. I agree - no need to labour on them.

However, in my last post I was basically summing up that ASR is moving in a positive direction
In the past Amir was making a rather big judgement based on only a discrete "one size fits all' pass or fail.

Now I see graphs creeping into his reports which show the full curve of SINAD versus output voltage. So readers can now make their own better informed equipment-matching choices.

However there is still some room for improvement.
For example, with respect to also showing the frequency response plots for the 88.2/96kHz and 176/192kHz sample rate families (ie double & quadruple rates) which are standard for many of us who listen to hirez flacs, or stream 192kHz music through the built-in HEOS, or who watch concert blurays which often have audio presented in LPCM or DTS-Master @96kHz/24bit.

See the superimposed FR plots at top of page 20 of the attached AKM4458 spec (the DAC used in the AV7705 and others) -- you'll see what I'm talking about for the "Short Delay Slow Roll-Off Filter Frequency Response":

@ 44.1kHz there is roll-off starting below 22kHz;
@ 96kHz there is no roll-off at 22kHz. Rather, it stays fully flat up to around 35kHz.
@ 192kHz the FR stays flat out to about 60kHz !

See p20:
https://velvetsound.akm.com/content.../audio-dac/ak4458vn/ak4458vn-en-datasheet.pdf

I would expect the AV7705 (and other Marantz/Denon AVR/AVPs that use the AKM4458) to demonstrate similar extended FR responses at these higher sample rates.
But I'm really surprised that Amir didn't measure them!
I hope he can in the future.

ps. Also check out the reduction in passband ripple with the "Short Delay Slow Roll-Off" filter (see bottom of p20), versus that of the "Fast Roll-Off" filter (see bottom of page 14)...

 

[Masza]

I was looking forward to the release of AV7706 but after reading the review I can only hope that it fixes at least the worst problems AV7705 seemed to have. It would be great to have review for the AV7706