ban25
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Boots up in less than a minute? j/k
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Looking to upgrade my Processor (Marantz AV8801)
- Thread starter Audiophilehi
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Actually seems like a change and difficult to label as up or down. But great question and I am very interested in the answer as well.
AV-10 does measure better than Trinnov and it more user friendly, stable and does not exhibit PC quirks.
Trinnov does have more sophisticated room EQ, starting with more impressive mic and more extensive adjustment features. But then, if you have a simple HT system that is positioned well (aka 80hz bookshelf with some subs, no need for fancy 3D remaking), how much is Trinnov really worth?
Madhuski
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I had a smaller setup in a 5.1.4 living room (ie non-dedicated). The trinnov was professionally calibrated by one if the best there is. I had Alcons at the time.
I had the opportunity to get an AV10 at a killer discount so decided why not. I had a tough time discerning and big difference between the trinnov, and my family could not tell at all i made any changes. So, decided to part with the Trinnov and pocket the extra cash.
If i had a larger speaker count or a dedicated room, then I suspect there may have been more of a gap between the two
How do you know that? He did not say which Trinnov model he had right?
If he had the one Amir reviewed, then at least in terms of audio specs/performance (not features), the AV10 is an upgrade. In terms of audibly improved sound quality, it would obviously be a different story.
Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Trinnov Altitude 16 AV Processor. I received one sample from a kind member after which Trinnov also contacted me and sent me another with an improvement (see below). The Altitude costs US $17,000. In contacting me Trinnov expressed that they...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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The big improvements occur with the room correction. In the perfect room with the perfect speaker layout, Dirac is great. As your room gets less ideal and your speaker layout gets less ideal Trinnov is better.
I would say you get to 70% of the quality with a premium soundbar setup, 85% with a Sony or Yamaha receiver, 90% with a standard AVR from Denon/Onkyo/JBL, 97% with a AV10 or HTP-1 if you can use extra channels and then 99% with the Trinnov. I say this having gone Sony to Yamaha to HTP-1 to Trinnov Altitude32. The real strength of the Trinnov line is future proofing. Their track record has been great for releasing new features and hardware upgrades as appropriate. The big paradox is that people with the worst layouts are the ones most likely to benefit from 3D remapping but it’s people with dedicated home theater build outs that can budget for the Trinnov…
Going back to the question. Nothing will beat buying better speakers for your setup. Putting $3000 into a premium center channel or more “musical” subwoofer (group delay, distortion) will help a lot.
The Monolith HTP-1 is a very reliable product with excellent features and value. Dirac full range is included with the HTP-1 and it is one of the only systems with the ability to apply loudness on top of Dirac. You get Atmos and Auro 3D upmixers and it works great. The weakness is that you have to be a tinkerer as you will be relying more on community support than a dealer or manufacturer for support, and you have to be happy with the feature set as is.
With Dirac, your speakers should be in a good location.
If you don’t have the best location for your speakers, I tell people that your best bet outside of a Trinnov is a Sony or Yamaha AVR. The Yamaha AVRs get criticized for poor SINAD, but it’s inaudible and it’s designed for 1V outputs, which is fine with your McIntosh amp which is also intended to operate with 1V input sensitivity on the unbalanced inputs. The Yamaha Cinema DSP works great for music and creating that bubble of sound. It’s not at all like setting the reverb setting to on or any of the sound modes from other vendors. The Yamaha A8A has a lot of discounts at times from places like Adorama.
It’s been measured by enthusiasts with a SINAD of 100 dB at 1.6V XLR (which should be similar to 0.8V RCA)
The Yamaha runs out of steam as you increase the voltage, meaning it’s a poor match with today’s class D wonder amps with lower gain, but for your McIntosh, the processor won’t be limiting your performance. You would run “YPAO RSC with 64 bit precision” for your room correction and then use a UMIK-1 to fine tune your results with PEQ. The better your speakers are, the less critical the full capabilities of Dirac are. Yamaha does a good with room correction — not speaker correction.
Edit: I run a 5.2.2 right now with my Trinnov. I have used quad subs to experiment with Waveforming (works great) and I am adding some front heights. My room and speaker layout are very compromised…
I would say you get to 70% of the quality with a premium soundbar setup, 85% with a Sony or Yamaha receiver, 90% with a standard AVR from Denon/Onkyo/JBL, 97% with a AV10 or HTP-1 if you can use extra channels and then 99% with the Trinnov. I say this having gone Sony to Yamaha to HTP-1 to Trinnov Altitude32. The real strength of the Trinnov line is future proofing. Their track record has been great for releasing new features and hardware upgrades as appropriate. The big paradox is that people with the worst layouts are the ones most likely to benefit from 3D remapping but it’s people with dedicated home theater build outs that can budget for the Trinnov…
Going back to the question. Nothing will beat buying better speakers for your setup. Putting $3000 into a premium center channel or more “musical” subwoofer (group delay, distortion) will help a lot.
The Monolith HTP-1 is a very reliable product with excellent features and value. Dirac full range is included with the HTP-1 and it is one of the only systems with the ability to apply loudness on top of Dirac. You get Atmos and Auro 3D upmixers and it works great. The weakness is that you have to be a tinkerer as you will be relying more on community support than a dealer or manufacturer for support, and you have to be happy with the feature set as is.
With Dirac, your speakers should be in a good location.
If you don’t have the best location for your speakers, I tell people that your best bet outside of a Trinnov is a Sony or Yamaha AVR. The Yamaha AVRs get criticized for poor SINAD, but it’s inaudible and it’s designed for 1V outputs, which is fine with your McIntosh amp which is also intended to operate with 1V input sensitivity on the unbalanced inputs. The Yamaha Cinema DSP works great for music and creating that bubble of sound. It’s not at all like setting the reverb setting to on or any of the sound modes from other vendors. The Yamaha A8A has a lot of discounts at times from places like Adorama.
It’s been measured by enthusiasts with a SINAD of 100 dB at 1.6V XLR (which should be similar to 0.8V RCA)
The Yamaha runs out of steam as you increase the voltage, meaning it’s a poor match with today’s class D wonder amps with lower gain, but for your McIntosh, the processor won’t be limiting your performance. You would run “YPAO RSC with 64 bit precision” for your room correction and then use a UMIK-1 to fine tune your results with PEQ. The better your speakers are, the less critical the full capabilities of Dirac are. Yamaha does a good with room correction — not speaker correction.
Edit: I run a 5.2.2 right now with my Trinnov. I have used quad subs to experiment with Waveforming (works great) and I am adding some front heights. My room and speaker layout are very compromised…
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Vacceo
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Absolutely fair. I´d take that route basically because I still listen to vynil every once in a while, so having a quite competent phono is a nice extra. The streaming platform could be better, but again, you have access to radio, music services, podscasts and so on, which is quite convenient.
I assume you have calibrated it too (Dirac, Audyssey or both?), which speaks volumes about diminishing returns in EQ technologies. If you noticed no serious changes and even got out with money on your pocket, it was definetly the right choice.
That´s why I wrote "on paper"; then you have the real world with your set of speakers, room, listening habits.... Trinnov´s EQ technology is quite outstanding. That does not mean other systems are equally competent as we have seen.How do you know that? He did not say which Trinnov mocel he had right?
If he had the one Amir reviewed, then at least in terms of audio specs/performance (not features), the AV10 is an upgrade. In terms of audibly improved sound quality, it would obviously be a different story.
Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Trinnov Altitude 16 AV Processor. I received one sample from a kind member after which Trinnov also contacted me and sent me another with an improvement (see below). The Altitude costs US $17,000. In contacting me Trinnov expressed that they...
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Definitely concur that room correction makes a far more present difference than electronics/SINAD beyond the midrange (X3800H). Experimenting with Audyssey (through A1 Evo) has allowed me to hear the same AVR (and thus electronics) sound completely different, the only differences being in phase/timing, target curve, filter locations and magnitudes, etc. Electronics, certainly at the current midrange and above, are essentially solved*. It might be possible under specific test conditions to notice a difference in these components, but I don't have to think particularly hard to hear a clear difference between room correction profiles with even just slightly different parameters. and thats using the same EQ suite, jumping between them would be more major yet.
Given that room EQ is not a solved problem, definitely prioritize that (and speaker quality + placement) over raw electronics measurements for these AVRs/AVPs. I would love for more digging in to how different room correction offerings compare, what work has been done in this space only piques my curiosity further.
*this doesn't mean there isn't still work to do, high-end AVRs still lag dedicated audio components significantly in performance, and lower-end AVRs still have room to improve. but its more accessible than ever to not really be limited by the circuitry of your gear.
Given that room EQ is not a solved problem, definitely prioritize that (and speaker quality + placement) over raw electronics measurements for these AVRs/AVPs. I would love for more digging in to how different room correction offerings compare, what work has been done in this space only piques my curiosity further.
*this doesn't mean there isn't still work to do, high-end AVRs still lag dedicated audio components significantly in performance, and lower-end AVRs still have room to improve. but its more accessible than ever to not really be limited by the circuitry of your gear.
I upgraded from a Denon AVR A-110 to the Trinnov 16. The complexity and customizability of the Trinnov is mind boggling—infinite future pleasure for a tinkerer.
Lets just look at “one example” using my bass management. I had two identical sealed subs and wanted to add a new one with more infrabass from Harbottle.
The trinnov has an option called “active speaker calibration.” This allows you to assign a separate output channel to each speaker of a proposed active 4-way speaker—so 4 channels from the trinnov to just one active speaker. But this also allows you to, after running REW, individually adjust each of 4 subs instead (much like a mini-DSP) to the room and then use the final trinnov room EQ to sum all four subs as one (i only use 3). This I can save and use per any of 29 presets to manage my bass management. I have one preset for movies, one for multimusic, one for 2 channel with subs and one 2 channel without subs.
That is why I have the trinnov=its complexity of capability. And this was just one example. Inputs are also customizable.
Lets just look at “one example” using my bass management. I had two identical sealed subs and wanted to add a new one with more infrabass from Harbottle.
The trinnov has an option called “active speaker calibration.” This allows you to assign a separate output channel to each speaker of a proposed active 4-way speaker—so 4 channels from the trinnov to just one active speaker. But this also allows you to, after running REW, individually adjust each of 4 subs instead (much like a mini-DSP) to the room and then use the final trinnov room EQ to sum all four subs as one (i only use 3). This I can save and use per any of 29 presets to manage my bass management. I have one preset for movies, one for multimusic, one for 2 channel with subs and one 2 channel without subs.
That is why I have the trinnov=its complexity of capability. And this was just one example. Inputs are also customizable.
OP
Audiophilehi
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Just to update the forum, I decided to purchase the Anthem Avm 70 8k processor. The cost was within my budget and preference's.
Now the short wait. It should be delivered in 3 days.
Now the short wait. It should be delivered in 3 days.
Holmz
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OK
Unlikely
which features tickle your fancy?
OP
Audiophilehi
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For starters I wanted a better DAC, updated features from my AV8801 like 8K, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, and Bluetooth.
Vacceo
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Better sound, all elements being the same, perhaps but just marginally. However, better equalization, capacity to add extra subwoofers and a bit further customization on speaker response could definitely give you a better result.
On the video part, hands down: 4k 120hz and ear, are definitely improvements.
On the video part, hands down: 4k 120hz and ear, are definitely improvements.
Hi bro What model Alcons setup did you have? How good were they? Kindly reply
Madhuski
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Seamless Bubble Of Sound Experience in TV room Minneapolis
Building a Home Cinema or, converting the TV room into the best cinema experience it could be; that was the choice Madhu Kannapiran in Minneapolis, MN. had to make for his Family Home. Today Madhu is exited with the transformation of his TV room with premium Alcons pro-ribbon reference monitors.
www.alconsaudio.com
They were great. I had them for about 3 years but sold them for a few reasons, none of which had anything to do with sound quality. Fun fact: the buyer was Peter Freedman of Rode mics.
Hi bro, Good to know your experience..Thanks for the replySeamless Bubble Of Sound Experience in TV room Minneapolis
Building a Home Cinema or, converting the TV room into the best cinema experience it could be; that was the choice Madhu Kannapiran in Minneapolis, MN. had to make for his Family Home. Today Madhu is exited with the transformation of his TV room with premium Alcons pro-ribbon reference monitors.www.alconsaudio.com
They were great. I had them for about 3 years but sold them for a few reasons, none of which had anything to do with sound quality. Fun fact: the buyer was Peter Freedman of Rode mics.
How did you like the Anthem?
livinon2wheels
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Given the likelihood of new electronics giving problems, and that is a significant risk, if I had equipment that was working well and met my needs, I would not even think of doing a so called upgrade...the risk of getting equipment that needs to be returned to manufacturer is too high. I have purchased 7 items so far in my attempt to recover from my house fire, so far, no less than 3 of those items have had to be sent back for warranty work. One pair of speakers, one amplifier, and a HT processor, all from different manufacturers. Upgrading is a much riskier process than it once was. This is nearly a 50% failure rate on NEW equipment. Not at all acceptable to me but its real numbers and all these failures are legitimate. Its going to be long drawn out battle to get back to where I once was and I am having doubts about ever getting there.
OP
Audiophilehi
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I love my Anthem AVM 70 8k. Contrary to what some were saying about achieving better sound quality compared to my Marantz 8801 the AVM 70 out performs the 8801.
Comparing the video between the two is not really fair since the AVM 70 is 12 years newer and has a better DAC, updated features from my AV8801 like 8K, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, and Bluetooth.
For me this has been a worthy upgrade and I have no regrets.
Actually for SINAD comparison at 4V xlr or 2 V rca, the 8805 did better the 7705 by more than 10 dB, the AV7705 did much worse than a Denon AVR such as the x3700h. The 7706 reportedly did about the same as the 7705.
Thank you for the feedback, not surprised at all by your findings.
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