Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[peng]

Obviously AVM 90 is a very fine AVP, especially if ARC handles bass better now. I don't think anyone would be unhappy with it. But this is all about spliting hairs into tiny bits and pieces

I had really good experience with Audy-X on 6700H, and when they kind of announced ART support for newer models, that really sealed the deal for AV-10. Perhaps my preference is such because I run 6 towers and big center for bed channels and like to have their support in the bass area as much as I can. Not very common to use such setup and not the best value for money, but it did help greatly with the proper speaker placement in my HTs. So just trying to get most milage out of it.

With 7 full range towers you will likely do well with ART, have you seen amy REW kind of graphs owners of ART posted yet?

Can't wait to see how well ART is working in the real world.

 

[Oddball]

With 7 full range towers you will likely do well with ART, have you seen amy REW kind of graphs owners of ART posted yet?

Can't wait to see how well ART is working in the real world.

I have recently auditioned Storm16 system with Perlisten R towers front, big S series center and a bit smaller surrounds LRB (but still quite big) and 2 of their biggest subs and it is definitely pretty awesome. Can’t say I was not excited, but honestly expected more. Bass was really tight and impactful, but not as much of it as I would expect. That’s why a bit sceptical about ART, but will definitely go for it and try to make the best of it.

Have 6 Gallo reference 3.5 towers and they do have 10” woofer but some of them are limited to 40hz at 0dB calibration due to placement. Still pretty useful as 6 of them. Will likely add new FRL pair and repurpose current ones as FWs, but not sure what to choose. Waiting for reviews of ne SVS Ultra 4x8” woofer towers in push-pull configuration. Seems pretty interesting design and could be pretty good overall and especially as bass support.

Although have 4 subs that are no slouch (2x SVS PC 4000 cylinders and 2x Arendal 1723 2Vs) room is multi-purpose, irregular and 6000 cft. Honestly don’t feel like adding more subs for various reasons and want towers to add some extra punch especially in 40-80hz area. Have more than enough in the lower end and given multi purpose room and various vibrations, this is the area I want to reinforce.

 

[hwest]

For almost a year, that's my frustration with ARCG/phase optimization, but finally, they fixed it in the last FW update (in the deep bass range, I needed to spend lots of time tweaking prior) such that I can now live with it though still found Audyssey and Dirac better in that range, at least based on my REW graphs (visually definitely good enough now). Funny thing is, there has got to be many die hard fans, on blind faith, didn't realize what they missed, or they simply prefer major suckouts in the below 50 Hz range lol...


Another funny thing is, Anthem clearly stated that they didn't design for a "sonic flavor", yet many of those fans seem to say they heard xyz%&*#..... when compared to other gear in stereo without dsp effects. To me, I am happy that the AVMs simply have very low distortions, flat FR and do seem to sound transparent to me, but then gain I can say the same about D+M's and my 2 channel separate gear, the X8500HA, that I never auditioned, bound to sound transparent based on it's great measurements, for AVRs measured on ASR, nothing did better than it's >100 dB SINAD yet (obviously that's just one metric but...), though I suspect the Cinema 30 will, if and when it gets measured.

Oh boy guys, I don't know what to say about the Subwoofer settings on the Anthem, it's very good and easy to tune even auto tuning the drivers to mix in brilliantly and enhance the mains like I haven't heard on any Marantz or Denon. I just don't know what to say as I'm not impressed at all by Denon or Marantz's flat dead sound, they just don't have anything that stands out and demands attention, if you like that dealer sound that's fine, just not for me.

 

[Dj7675]

Oh boy guys, I don't know what to say about the Subwoofer settings on the Anthem, it's very good and easy to tune even auto tuning the drivers to mix in brilliantly and enhance the mains like I haven't heard on any Marantz or Denon. I just don't know what to say as I'm not impressed at all by Denon or Marantz's flat dead sound, they just don't have anything that stands out and demands attention, if you like that dealer sound that's fine, just not for me.

Would love to see any measurements (REW).

 

[dlaloum]

I have recently auditioned Storm16 system with Perlisten R towers front, big S series center and a bit smaller surrounds LRB (but still quite big) and 2 of their biggest subs and it is definitely pretty awesome. Can’t say I was not excited, but honestly expected more. Bass was really tight and impactful, but not as much of it as I would expect. That’s why a bit sceptical about ART, but will definitely go for it and try to make the best of it.

My gut response to this is - ART is about quality rather than quantity... I would not be expecting "more", but I would be expecting "better".

Have 6 Gallo reference 3.5 towers and they do have 10” woofer but some of them are limited to 40hz at 0dB calibration due to placement. Still pretty useful as 6 of them. Will likely add new FRL pair and repurpose current ones as FWs, but not sure what to choose. Waiting for reviews of ne SVS Ultra 4x8” woofer towers in push-pull configuration. Seems pretty interesting design and could be pretty good overall and especially as bass support.

I too have Gallo Reference towers for my mains (3.2's) - with Reference AV center

I have been searching for more towers for surround, but they never sold a lot of them in Australia - and those that have them seem to be holding onto them!

I have ended up purchasing a pair of B&O Penta column towers for my surround channel (I run 5.1.4)

Although theoretically capable of going down to 24Hz, in my setup the Gallo's drop off quickly below 40Hz (similar to your experience). I do have the gear to Biamp them, tried it in the past, then gave up on it as it seemed to have little discernible impact... but I probably should give it another go, with measurement (rather than my previous purely subjective try).
The B&O Penta's and the Gallo Ref3.2's effectively extend to about the same bass frequencies (Dirac auto set the lower end to the same 40Hz ...)

I also have Gallo TR1 sub (one connected, one spare for future dual use) - which in theory extends to 24Hz... (same driver as the Ref3.2, different cabinet) - Dirac sets its lower limit as 27Hz

Although have 4 subs that are no slouch (2x SVS PC 4000 cylinders and 2x Arendal 1723 2Vs) room is multi-purpose, irregular and 6000 cft. Honestly don’t feel like adding more subs for various reasons and want towers to add some extra punch especially in 40-80hz area. Have more than enough in the lower end and given multi purpose room and various vibrations, this is the area I want to reinforce.

With your suite of full range speakers, all with substantial capabilities in the 40-80Hz zone - it seems to me that there is no lack of SPL capability... regardless of subs, the issue is more likely to be bass management, and specifically how the bass load is distributed among the speakers.

Most mixers/decoders do not distribute Bass across the speakers... so unless the bass was encoded in that channel (rear/surround) - they sit there idle.

The "Double Bass" feature on many AVR's, distributes the bass between subs and main Front L/R... still does not involve center or surround/rear.

I do wonder, whether if I disconnected the sub from the "sub" channel - and allowed the mixer to virtualise the LFE channel, it might then distribute it to ALL the other capable channels.... and if that is the case, more benefit of the sub might be achieved by running it/them in parallel with the Main L/R rather than through a managed sub channel...

Although ART seems to be showing a way forward - the overall bass management still seems to be a mess to me.

 

[Dj7675]

I have recently auditioned Storm16 system with Perlisten R towers front, big S series center and a bit smaller surrounds LRB (but still quite big) and 2 of their biggest subs and it is definitely pretty awesome. Can’t say I was not excited, but honestly expected more. Bass was really tight and impactful, but not as much of it as I would expect. That’s why a bit sceptical about ART, but will definitely go for it and try to make the best of it.

Have 6 Gallo reference 3.5 towers and they do have 10” woofer but some of them are limited to 40hz at 0dB calibration due to placement. Still pretty useful as 6 of them. Will likely add new FRL pair and repurpose current ones as FWs, but not sure what to choose. Waiting for reviews of ne SVS Ultra 4x8” woofer towers in push-pull configuration. Seems pretty interesting design and could be pretty good overall and especially as bass support.

Although have 4 subs that are no slouch (2x SVS PC 4000 cylinders and 2x Arendal 1723 2Vs) room is multi-purpose, irregular and 6000 cft. Honestly don’t feel like adding more subs for various reasons and want towers to add some extra punch especially in 40-80hz area. Have more than enough in the lower end and given multi purpose room and various vibrations, this is the area I want to reinforce.

A few thoughts…
1-You can dial in whatever house curve you prefer, so I would not worry about that at all. IMO,
2-Dirac ART by default has a steep filter at 20hz. Dirac has a workaround to enable infrabass. It is pretty rudimentary as it pretty much doesn’t do any eq below 20hz. I would expect them to refine this at some point. But if you are used to sub 20hz content and they did not have infrabass enabled on the subs, it would be missing quite a lot of effect for many setups.

App. Note 2: Infra bass bypass - STORMAUDIO - KNOWLEDGE CENTER - Knowledge Center

support-stormaudio.atlassian.net

3. There are so many configuration options in ART and can take a some time. But it does work and sound really good.

 

[IamJF]

I have recently auditioned Storm16 system with Perlisten R towers front, big S series center and a bit smaller surrounds LRB (but still quite big) and 2 of their biggest subs and it is definitely pretty awesome. Can’t say I was not excited, but honestly expected more. Bass was really tight and impactful, but not as much of it as I would expect.

Dirac standard goal curve is pretty linear - that's way lower bass as people often have in their surround setups! You need to modify your house curve to your liking.

Although have 4 subs that are no slouch (2x SVS PC 4000 cylinders and 2x Arendal 1723 2Vs) room is multi-purpose, irregular and 6000 cft. Honestly don’t feel like adding more subs for various reasons and want towers to add some extra punch especially in 40-80hz area. Have more than enough in the lower end and given multi purpose room and various vibrations, this is the area I want to reinforce.

Had you thought abobut building subs tailored to your room? Especially in rooms with restricted possibilities this can be a great solution.

 

[Oddball]

My gut response to this is - ART is about quality rather than quantity... I would not be expecting "more", but I would be expecting "better".

I too have Gallo Reference towers for my mains (3.2's) - with Reference AV center

With your suite of full range speakers, all with substantial capabilities in the 40-80Hz zone - it seems to me that there is no lack of SPL capability... regardless of subs, the issue is more likely to be bass management, and specifically how the bass load is distributed among the speakers.

Most mixers/decoders do not distribute Bass across the speakers... so unless the bass was encoded in that channel (rear/surround) - they sit there idle.

The "Double Bass" feature on many AVR's, distributes the bass between subs and main Front L/R... still does not involve center or surround/rear.

I do wonder, whether if I disconnected the sub from the "sub" channel - and allowed the mixer to virtualise the LFE channel, it might then distribute it to ALL the other capable channels.... and if that is the case, more benefit of the sub might be achieved by running it/them in parallel with the Main L/R rather than through a managed sub channel...

Although ART seems to be showing a way forward - the overall bass management still seems to be a mess to me.

Gallo Reference towers are really great overall, and have been enjoying them for10 years now, could be more as time flies. I am keeping them for now mostly because of their overall reference performance. For bass, the new 4x8" woofer designs are something a single 10" can't quite do.

Double bass on D&M, called LFE+Main, sends the full range signal to all speakers set as full range. This as I understand works only with Audy. One can designate them as full range in the menu, does not have to be measured as such by Audy. These could be any speakers, but most people limit this to bed channel. Audy will still correct that "full range" signal based on your calibration, so will roll-off the part of the signal that speaker can't support. Thus, the speaker won't blow up, and in addition there is protection in most speakers as well. Bass signal in these channels set as full range will be mixed to LFE based on the crossover you set for each channel (40/60/80...). Pretty coarse setting and more granular would be much better. So your subs will start picking up at this point and transition in based on 12dB per octave filter. You can blend this as traditional crossover (which kind of begs the point why) or can set overlap in case that is the goal and sounds/measures better. With overlap, you will get some additional SPL and smoothing in the overlap area, and some of it will be coming from the full range speakers. One could do the "same" thing by having a similar sub curve, but without participation of additional drivers and amps from full range channels. While the REW curve could be largely similar in both cases, from my humble experience, it would not sound the same.

Triple bass is feature introduced to 2023/4 models (Storm has this as well in their bass management module for optional $2k) and is called "LFE distribution". Also works only with Audy. This can be used independently or in conjunction with double bass. LFE is distributed to the channel set as full range and there is a level setting where you can set the level of LFE signal from -20dB to 0dB in 2dB increments. I understand this signal is before LFE gets 10dB bump (empirical, have not found the source - but my speakers and amps still work well at -4dB and don't clip or distort audibly). This might have impact on SPL depending on level settings and level of particular sequence of LFE material, but will smooth the response and give bass a bit more depth and definition (whatever that means?).

Both of the above are not game changers or something that one would "have" to do. More like - if you have the system and room for it, why not try. In my circumstances, I do like to use both for slight improvement in the SPL and definition of the sub 80hz bass response. Not planning to enter into long discussions about the inappropriateness of using double or triple bas, nor trying to convert anyone to the dark side. Just sharing my experience. If I am doing it wrong, well, would not be the first thing in life where I made a bad call.

Don't ask for REW - not there yet as this is relatively new room and system (only Gallos and amps are from previous HT) and still working on figuring out best sub placement and curves. With big room, 4 subs and not much time to tweak, the project is moving (really) slowly. Will come when I get more tweaking time.

 

[Oddball]

A few thoughts…
1-You can dial in whatever house curve you prefer, so I would not worry about that at all. IMO,
2-Dirac ART by default has a steep filter at 20hz. Dirac has a workaround to enable infrabass. It is pretty rudimentary as it pretty much doesn’t do any eq below 20hz. I would expect them to refine this at some point. But if you are used to sub 20hz content and they did not have infrabass enabled on the subs, it would be missing quite a lot of effect for many setups.

App. Note 2: Infra bass bypass - STORMAUDIO - KNOWLEDGE CENTER - Knowledge Center

support-stormaudio.atlassian.net

3. There are so many configuration options in ART and can take a some time. But it does work and sound really good.

Many thanks for the input - looking forward to trying it when ART finally get to D&M. Clarified with the dealer that they did not have any workaround for under 20hz, which could explain why the bass sounded a bit thinner than I am used to. Also, the dealer was not really into me messing with their calibration. The audition was my interest in Pelisten LRC, which was diminished after the fact - really exquisite speakers but for HT there might be cheaper and more impactful options.

My subs are good to 15hz in the room (and per the specs) and not really into infra bass, but would like them to stay good to15hz. 20 to 15 is half octave so pretty significant area and does add depth to the overall experience. Hopefully Dirac will extend at least to 15hz, which is where lots of mainstream subs cut off.

 

[Oddball]

Dirac standard goal curve is pretty linear - that's way lower bass as people often have in their surround setups! You need to modify your house curve to your liking.


Had you thought abobut building subs tailored to your room? Especially in rooms with restricted possibilities this can be a great solution.

The system I auditioned had a pretty nice bump in the bass area, especially 40hz above, but as just noted in the previous posts, they did not have below 20hz workaround which was likely why I perceived the bass as a bit thin.

Have not yet thought about custom subs - for now trying to make the whole system play nice as a team. Think I have pretty solid players, some even stars, but getting them to play well together takes some tweaking. For now my assessment is that it's the bad (busy, or part-time) coach, not the bad team. Could change though...

 

[Dj7675]

Many thanks for the input - looking forward to trying it when ART finally get to D&M. Clarified with the dealer that they did not have any workaround for under 20hz, which could explain why the bass sounded a bit thinner than I am used to. Also, the dealer was not really into me messing with their calibration. The audition was my interest in Pelisten LRC, which was diminished after the fact - really exquisite speakers but for HT there might be cheaper and more impactful options.

My subs are good to 15hz in the room (and per the specs) and not really into infra bass, but would like them to stay good to15hz. 20 to 15 is half octave so pretty significant area and does add depth to the overall experience. Hopefully Dirac will extend at least to 15hz, which is where lots of mainstream subs cut off.

I have the Storm ISP MK2. I don’t understand why your dealer is saying they don’t have a work around for sub 20hz content. I enable Infra Bass on the subs and it enables all sub 20hz content. The transition between 20hz and under isn’t perfectly smooth but the trade off is you get all the sub 20hz content. It isn’t a perfect work around, but you get the sub 20hz content with ART enabled. In room my subs provide very good output to around 14hz and I wouldln’t want to miss that. But in the end the amount of bass and how deep you want it to play is a preference and easily adjusted. I am using around a +7 or 8 curve.

 

[Oddball]

I have the Storm ISP MK2. I don’t understand why your dealer is saying they don’t have a work around for sub 20hz content. I enable Infra Bass on the subs and it enables all sub 20hz content. The transition between 20hz and under isn’t perfectly smooth but the trade off is you get all the sub 20hz content. It isn’t a perfect work around, but you get the sub 20hz content with ART enabled. In room my subs provide very good output to around 14hz and I wouldln’t want to miss that. But in the end the amount of bass and how deep you want it to play is a preference and easily adjusted. I am using around a +7 or 8 curve.

Quite a processor and sure you are enjoying it big time.

Their response was that I was auditioning the speakers not the subs or Storm, so they provided "best experience" they though was suitable for the speaker audition. Might have to go there again to try the full Monty. Again, Perlisten R towers are quite a candy, but was not entirely convinced, mainly due to price tag. Really want to hear new SVS towers for half the price to see how much "worse" they are. Have some video upgrade plans as well so don't want to blow the whole budget on speakers.

 

[hwest]

Would love to see any measurements (REW).

Curves only get you so far, assume a flat response with some personal variations on the highs and mids there are so many measurements out there on this unit no need to repeat them. REW reads almost identical to the ARC readings but I typically use both REW and ARC although it's not really necessary and I probably won't continue to do that as I make adjustments in the future I'll likely only use ARC Genesis. There is certainly no need whatsoever to DSP the Subs on a unit like the 90, it's so good at doing the subs and immediately puts you in a better position after running the phase program.

 

[hwest]

Would love to see any measurements (REW).

Do you see this flat response on the Marantz SR8015? Is this what passes as good sound? Because if you say yet you're wrong this thing does not sound anywhere near the AVM90.

 

[Dj7675]

Curves only get you so far, assume a flat response with some personal variations on the highs and mids there are so many measurements out there on this unit no need to repeat them. REW reads almost identical to the ARC readings but I typically use both REW and ARC although it's not really necessary and I probably won't continue to do that as I make adjustments in the future I'll likely only use ARC Genesis. There is certainly no need whatsoever to DSP the Subs on a unit like the 90, it's so good at doing the subs and immediately puts you in a better position after running the phase program.

With any automated DSP programs, you just can't assume anything. All of them have had issues at different times.

I have seen a ton of ARC predicted post measurements but actually very few actual verification measurements from REW. Many of the ones I have seen were from not long ago from @peng that showed severe issues with subwoofer response despite Anthem owners stating how good it sounded. You can find hundreds of such post Audyssey and Dirac measurements but that doesn't seem to be the case with ARC.

Do you see this flat response on the Marantz SR8015? Is this what passes as good sound? Because if you say yet you're wrong this thing does not sound anywhere near the AVM90.

It seems to me you are conflating two things… the SR8015 measurement is simply the benchtest done by Amir. We expect that kind of response from well engineered products and get that from Anthem, Denon, and many Marantz products now. What I was attempting to talk about is post EQ measurements (ARC G, Dirac Audyssey). Those kind of post EQ measurements are very imprortant to double check to make sure an AutoEQ system is working properly. For example, comparing the expected vs actual measured response is really what needs to be done to make sure an EQ system is effective or not, or in some cases if it is broken. None of these automated EQ systems are immune from issues which is why measurements post eq are so important.

 

[peng]

With any automated DSP programs, you just can't assume anything. All of them have had issues at different times.

I have seen a ton of ARC predicted post measurements but actually very few actual verification measurements from REW. Many of the ones I have seen were from not long ago from @peng that showed severe issues with subwoofer response despite Anthem owners stating how good it sounded. You can find hundreds of such post Audyssey and Dirac measurements but that doesn't seem to be the case with ARC.

It seems to me you are conflating two things… the SR8015 measurement is simply the benchtest done by Amir. We expect that kind of response from well engineered products and get that from Anthem, Denon, and many Marantz products now. What I was attempting to talk about is post EQ measurements (ARC G, Dirac Audyssey). Those kind of post EQ measurements are very imprortant to double check to make sure an AutoEQ system is working properly. For example, comparing the expected vs actual measured response is really what needs to be done to make sure an EQ system is effective or not, or in some cases if it is broken. None of these automated EQ systems are immune from issues which is why measurements post eq are so important.

He thinks the likes of SR8015 and AV10 don't sound as good as his AVM90 even without dsp effects, don't even compare at all, i.e., not even close iiuc. Others might say the opposite, some even said Marantz has the "musical sound", it's so subjective, we can convince them either way. It may be a good thing, that nowdays people has so many choices, and fans can live their dreams that the landed the best sounding avrs/avps, regardless of facts based on measurable, verifiable specs, they just have to trust their ears lol...

 

[hwest]

He thinks the likes of SR8015 and AV10 don't sound as good as his AVM90 even without dsp effects, don't even compare at all, i.e., not even close iiuc. Others might say the opposite, some even said Marantz has the "musical sound", it's so subjective, we can convince them either way. It may be a good thing, that nowdays people has so many choices, and fans can live their dreams that the landed the best sounding avrs/avps, regardless of facts based on measurable, verifiable specs, they just have to trust their ears lol...

Again I'll say I always measure but too much emphasis on measurements here vs the quality of sound is my opinion. Measurements alone don't get you great sound it's just a fact that seems to elude folks. Perhaps I have just been exposed to so many different systems I know what to listen for but we all know how imaging, separation and liveliness sound or we should know the difference I'll say. For the Subs I'll assume since I have 3 independent Subwoofers connected to my 90 I'm seeing a huge benefit on the phase matching that I would never get with Dirac or Marantz or Denon, it's just not there for those brands and I can revise it so using a DSP for subs makes zero sense in my case, clean tight bass is the result if you get yourself in front of the gear and use the features and not stall yourself out on the perfect curve mentality.

 

[Newman]

…too much emphasis on measurements here vs the quality of sound is my opinion. Measurements alone don't get you great sound it's just a fact that seems to elude folks. Perhaps I have just been exposed to so many different systems I know what to listen for…

Several tired and worn-out assumptions in the above:-
- “I can hear things that can’t be seen in a measurement”
- “I know what to listen for (and you don’t)”

Have you spent too much time on subjectivist audio discussion sites?

 

[Oddball]

For the Subs I'll assume since I have 3 independent Subwoofers connected to my 90 I'm seeing a huge benefit on the phase matching that I would never get with Dirac or Marantz or Denon, it's just not there for those brands and I can revise it so using a DSP for subs makes zero sense in my case, clean tight bass is the result if you get yourself in front of the gear and use the features and not stall yourself out on the perfect curve mentality.

Not really sure what phase matching are you referring to. DLBC definitely aligns all speakers and subs. Audy does not, but one can correct that easily if needed with a bit of REW. ARC can apparently do that as well. Clean and tight bass is great and glad you have it. Some might like it a bit dirty with an olive, shaken or stirred, a matter of taste.

But don’t think that people with other EQ systems can’t have what you are experiencing or can’t even get to a better outcome for their system. As I noted in my previous posts, for my particular system, there are features that Audy has and that I can’t get from ARC or DLBC - no personal experience with ART yet.

 

[hwest]

Several tired and worn-out assumptions in the above:-
- “I can hear things that can’t be seen in a measurement”
- “I know what to listen for (and you don’t)”

Have you spent too much time on subjectivist audio discussion sites?

Again, I said I validate I'm in the ballpark and flat doesn't mean better and I have heard many great systems and configurations as I've had the luxury of doing so. Yes agreed many won't know what to listen for, it's not that I'm better necessarily but I know what to listen for but also what tones I like. Take the very bright Focal's for instance, folks like those, to me way to heavy on the tweeter. That's not debatable and that definitely shows up in the measurements but not as much as you would think. If I went only by measurements I would think Focals are great speakers then get my ear drums pierced.