Loudness compression, loudness wars.. What exactly it is and why is it happening?

[restorer-john]

JJ Cale was interested in recording gear, so is Mark Knopfler. Cale's #5 is pretty high in DR scale! Source: Vinyl, 1979!

As Sal said so eloquently:

Right up there with the biggest bunch of Bull Shit I've ever read!

All the top numbers are extremely suspect, especially from vinyl sources that just happen to use proprietary 'purevinylclub' software... The results are without a doubt being manipulated by playing with levels, transients and/or dynamic range expansion.

Honestly, go have a look at this: http://www.purevinylclub.com/

and this: http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/

As an example and proof of concept, I just created the top entry on the dynamic range database by uploading a valid test track from a valid test disc which contains a 0dBfs series of impulses and zero. Impulses such as the ones I uploaded are remarkably similar to ticks and scratches on vinyl. It is those impulses, along with any other tricks that are giving those ridiculous numbers. Don't be fooled by vested interests.

 

[Juhazi]

^I use freeware Audacity to digitize my LPs, have had this hobby for some ten years now. My turntables are NAD 5120 and Thorens TD145, cartridges Glanz, AKG, ProJect. Main problems are 50Hz hum and rumble. Clicks and pops are easily clipped with the software, so is hum and rumble with highpass. My ADC is a cheap Terratec iVinyl box (usb 96/24), in Audacity I use 96kHz 32bit floating point for editing. Files are saved mostly 96/24.

Looks like I did't have #5 digitized, I'll put a sample in next post.

Audacity doesn't tell DR, so I mainly just look at waveform. Notice, that my "recording" level is sometimes too low, but since it's 24bit, I want to avoid clipping. Drifter's Wife is just the man and his acoustic guitar, sounds very unprocessed

.

 

[Juhazi]

I spent two hours with ivinyl before I gave up. Either the box is broken or it doesn't communicate well with W10 generic driver. So I used my RIAA preamp and connected it to laptop's soundcard.

JJ Cale's #5 is a wonderful record, I bought mine in 1981 and it is in mint condition despite hundreds of playing times. I don't have a D metering application, here is waveform and spectrum. In good old days each piece had it's own style and loudness, it was called art of making LPs. My pre doesn't have highpass rumble filter, I used Audacity for that, 12dB/octave at 25Hz. No clicks or pops to fix!

 

[Dro]

Vinyl DR data tends to be nonsense. Very unreliable. I wish you could just hide those entries.

 

[maty]

Talking about vinyl, just now I listen to:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5710322.html

Chick Corea - Now He Sings, Now He Sobs (1968), Vinyl, 2019 Blue Note Poet Series, US

Chick Corea - Now He Sings, Now He Sobs (Vinyl, LP, Album, Reissue) | Discogs

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR16 -0.73 dB -21.03 dB 13:51 01-Steps-What Was
DR15 -1.78 dB -20.68 dB 6:34 02-Matrix
DR15 -1.67 dB -20.40 dB 7:05 03-Now He Sings-Now He Sobs
DR17 -0.70 dB -23.41 dB 10:38 04-Now He Beats the Drum-Now He Stops
DR19 -2.67 dB -29.08 dB 2:29 05-The Law of Falling and Catching Up
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 5
Official DR value: DR17


CD, 2002

Chick Corea - Now He Sings, Now He Sobs - Amazon.com Music


Chick Corea - Wikipedia

 

[Juhazi]

I guess "it depends" - on how rip was done, which level and if clicks and pops were edited. I can't see anything strange with these - Clapton is from CD, Cale is a vinyl rip.

 

[ryanmh1]

Interesting channel. Although most thing either sound undertweaked or overprocessed to me. I would rather make my own versions.

On my headphones (good planars), all of them sound drastically less processed than the original version. I think there's probably some truth to that and some solid science behind it. Let's start with some definitions -- the "original" before clipping, the "mastered version" post-clipping and the "restored version" declipped. The original file probably had most of the waveforms fairly intact. The original was then very heavily processed to arrive at the mastered version, which has the peaks of the waveforms mercilessly stripped away. The mastered version loses the transient attack of drums and cymbals which was found in the original, and buries a lot of detail in distortion and noise. The restored version takes the clues that remain in the mastered version, and attempts to restore it. It is a perfect reproduction of the original? Clearly not. Even so, it is arguably closer to the original--which we know had more transient attacks and dynamics--than the mastered version.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that when the software takes an educated guess as to what was removed, the resulting product is probably closer to the original than the mastered version, and that it's the reduction of distortion and dynamic compression that sounds like the "overprocessing". I played the first 10 minutes or so of the Black album a few times in a row to train my brain to forget what the original sounded like. Then I listed to the original again, and it sounded as if it had been processed to within an inch of its life.

 

[swanlee]

My question is why have well educated Sound engineers allowed this to happen? Clipping and horribly reduced DR is a literal ERROR in music reproduction.

Maybe if more sound engineers stood their ground when crazy people asked them to make a record so loud it audibly clipped we would be in this mess right now.

Thank god for audio editing software for consumers, I find I can fix clipping and bad DR with good results in Izotope. Yes I know nothing can properly fix it but I have certainly made clipped and bad DR recording sound much much better. I've taken audio that measured DR 3 to DR7 and DR 6 to DR10. It has beenw orth while for me to fix these issues on my own when ripping my audio.

I should have never had to do that though Sound engineers and Mastering engineers should have told people to bugger off when asked to clip recordings.

 

[levimax]

My question is why have well educated Sound engineers allowed this to happen? Clipping and horribly reduced DR is a literal ERROR in music reproduction.

If you want to get paid make my music sound as loud or louder than everyone else so I stand out.

 

[swanlee]

If you want to get paid make my music sound as loud or louder than everyone else so I stand out.

And now no one stands out cause everyone is so loud. Just wish someone would have made a stand early on to prevent this.

 

[levimax]

And now no one stands out cause everyone is so loud. Just wish someone would have made a stand early on to prevent this.

See attached DR report from the 2019 Grammy Awards CD I just picked up.... Taylor Swift not so good with DR 3 and average of 22 Grammy songs DR 5 but Daniel Caesar is up to DR 9 .... hopefully more DR will be new way to stand out. We can only hope

 

[maty]

Just now, a new terrible example.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5723702.html

Ted Nugent - Ted Nugent (1975), Vinyl, Epic, US

Ted Nugent - Ted Nugent (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -0.92 dB -17.38 dB 8:25 01-Stranglehold
DR13 -0.70 dB -15.91 dB 3:09 02-Stormtroopin'
DR14 -0.77 dB -16.43 dB 4:00 03-Hey Baby
DR12 -1.41 dB -16.58 dB 3:47 04-Just What The Doctor Ordered
DR13 -1.39 dB -17.41 dB 4:35 05-Snakeskin Cowboys
DR13 -2.89 dB -18.06 dB 4:34 06-Motor City Madhouse
DR14 -0.70 dB -17.05 dB 4:06 07-Where Have You Been All My Life
DR13 -5.12 dB -21.14 dB 2:57 08-You Make Me Feel Right At Home
DR13 -2.45 dB -16.95 dB 3:36 09-Queen Of The Forest
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR13


CD, 1999 vade retro satana

Ted Nugent - Ted Nugent - Amazon.com Music


dr.louness Ted Nugent - Ted Nugent -> DR8

 

[maty]

Just now,

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5732498.html

The Alan Parsons Project - Eye In The Sky (1982), Vinyl, Speakers Corner 2007, Germany

The Alan Parsons Project - Eye In The Sky (Vinyl, LP, Album, Reissue, Remastered) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -2.28 dB -17.38 dB 1:46 01-Sirius
DR12 -0.24 dB -15.81 dB 4:45 02-Eye in the Sky
DR12 -1.17 dB -17.05 dB 4:51 03-Children of the Moon
DR10 -6.61 dB -20.56 dB 2:11 04-Gemini
DR12 -1.28 dB -18.26 dB 7:20 05-Silence and I
DR12 -2.35 dB -17.35 dB 4:24 06-You're Gonna Get Your Fingers Burned
DR14 -1.32 dB -18.58 dB 4:52 07-Psychobabble
DR15 -0.48 dB -16.97 dB 3:36 08-Mammagamma
DR13 -2.08 dB -18.22 dB 3:55 09-Step By Step
DR12 -3.25 dB -20.10 dB 4:54 10-Old And Wise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 10
Official DR value: DR13


CD, 1990

https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Sky-Alan-.../dp/B000002VC3


dr.loudness The Alan Parsons Project - Eye In The Sky

CD, 2017, 35th Anniversary Edition vade retro satana DR 8

 

[MRC01]

Classical music is, thankfully, free of these ridiculous loudness wars. In other genres, one my recent pleasant surprises was Fiona Boyes Professin' the Blues by Reference Recordings: DR17. Also, Lyle Lovett's recordings are well done with big dynamics. His Large Band is DR16, Joshua Judges Ruth is DR15. One of my favorite jazz albums, New York Reunion, a Bob Katz Chesky recording with McCoy Tyner & Ron Carter, is DR16.
That said, just because it has big DR doesn't necessarily mean it's a good recording. It might have other flaws. But high DR is at least a good sign.
The irony that vinyl sometimes has the biggest dynamic range, should not be lost on any of us.

 

[maty]

Jeff Wayne’s Musical Version Of The War Of The Worlds - The New Generation (1978), Vinyl x2, Sony 2012 Reissue, UK

Jeff Wayne's Musical Version Of The War Of The Worlds The New Generation | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR11 -0.66 dB -14.56 dB A1 Liam Neeson, Gary Barlow - The Eve Of The War
DR12 -0.47 dB -14.43 dB A2 Liam Neeson - Horsell Common And The Heat Ray
DR12 -0.56 dB -15.39 dB B1 Liam Neeson, Ricky Wilson - The Artilleryman And The Fighting Machine
DR11 -0.78 dB -15.05 dB B2 Gary Barlow, Liam Neeson - Forever Autumn
DR11 -0.42 dB -14.11 dB B3 Alex Clare, Liam Neeson - Thunder Child
DR12 -2.07 dB -19.33 dB C1 Liam Neeson -The Red Weed (Part 1)
DR12 -0.65 dB -14.32 dB C2 Joss Stone, Maverick Sabre, Liam Neeson -The Spirit Of Man
DR11 -1.57 dB -14.71 dB C3 Maverick Sabre, Liam Neeson -The Red Weed (Part 2)
DR13 -3.39 dB -19.97 dB C4 Ricky Wilson, Liam Neeson -The Artilleryman Returns
DR11 -0.30 dB -14.04 dB D1 Ricky Wilson, Liam Neeson - Brave New World
DR11 -2.81 dB -16.97 dB D2 Liam Neeson - Dead London (Part 1)
DR11 -0.55 dB -13.39 dB D3 Liam Neeson, Gary Barlow - Dead London (Part 2)
DR11 -1.33 dB -14.95 dB D4 Liam Neeson - Epilogue (Part 1)
DR11 -0.96 dB -19.11 dB D5 Jerry Wayne, Lewis Macleod - Epilogue (Part 2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 14
Official DR value: DR11


CD, 2012

Jeff Wayne's Musical Version Of The War Of The Worlds - The New Generation by Jeff Wayne: Amazon.co.uk: Music

dr.loudness Jeff Wayne - Musical Version of the War of the Worlds

CD 2012, vade retro satana DR7

Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds - Wikipedia

 

[maty]

The Who - Quadrophenia (1973), Vinyl, Track Record, Germany

The Who - Quadrophenia (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR14 -2.49 dB -22.88 dB A1 I Am The Sea
DR12 -0.66 dB -14.15 dB A2 The Real Me
DR13 -0.32 dB -15.63 dB A3 Quadrophenia
DR12 -2.31 dB -16.64 dB A4 Cut My Hair
DR13 -0.72 dB -15.92 dB A5 The Punk Meets The Godfather
DR13 -0.76 dB -16.90 dB B1 I'm One
DR12 -0.82 dB -15.20 dB B2 The Dirty Jobs
DR12 -2.14 dB -17.19 dB B3 Helpless Dancer
DR13 -0.74 dB -16.19 dB B4 Is It In My Head
DR12 -0.36 dB -15.45 dB B5 I've Had Enough
DR12 -0.54 dB -14.80 dB C1 5-15
DR13 -0.37 dB -15.72 dB C2 Sea And Sand
DR14 -0.35 dB -16.73 dB C3 Drowned
DR12 -2.19 dB -16.12 dB C4 Bell Boy
DR13 -0.16 dB -15.57 dB D1 Doctor Jimmy
DR14 -1.18 dB -17.65 dB D2 The Rock
DR12 -1.69 dB -15.82 dB D3 Love, Reign O'er Me
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 17
Official DR value: DR13


CD, 1996 DR 9 vade retro satana

The Who - Quadrophenia - Amazon.com Music

dr.loudness The Who - Quadrophenia

There are with DR 7 !!!


Quadrophenia - Wikipedia

 

[MRC01]

DR13 is pretty good for a rock album.
Rival Sons: Feral Roots: DR5 (not a typo, that's single digit five).
Dutz, Wabich: Drums and Bells: DR20 (tracks range from DR15 to DR29).

 

[maty]

Gregorio Paniagua, Atrium Musicae de Madrid - La Folia de la Spagna (1982), Vinyl, Harmonia mundi 1993, France

https://www.discogs.com/Gregorio-Paniagua-La-Folia/release/3231121

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR27 -0.11 dB -33.40 dB 21:56 SideA
DR23 -0.43 dB -31.71 dB 22:27 SideB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 2
Official DR value: DR25


SACD, with only DR18

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-are-we-listening-to-right-now.40/post-123680

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR19 -8.59 dB -33.84 dB 5:56 01-Fons vitae / Dementia praecox angelorum / Supra solfamirevt
DR17 -7.66 dB -33.72 dB 2:09 02-Extravagans / Laurea minima / In vitro
DR19 -5.67 dB -33.63 dB 2:27 03-Oratio pro-folia / Fama volat / Citrus - Hesperides
DR23 -2.98 dB -33.33 dB 8:12 04-Principalis. Fermescens / Indica exacta / Adverso flumine
DR16 -7.01 dB -32.52 dB 3:11 05-Parsimonia aristocraciae
DR12 -14.82 dB -32.89 dB 1:30 06-Subtilis / De profundis - Extra muros
DR20 -6.34 dB -32.44 dB 1:39 07-Vulgaris - Sine populi notione / Vagula et blandula
DR20 -3.20 dB -30.53 dB 5:06 08-Nordica et desolata / Aurea mediocritas
DR15 -12.51 dB -32.62 dB 2:22 09-Nobilissima / Degradans et corruptae
DR20 -4.79 dB -32.56 dB 5:14 10-De pastoribus / Mathematica dies irae / Crepuscularis / Sine nomine / Tristis est anima mea / Equites fortis armaturae / Audaces fortuna juvat / Sine praeputium / Ecclesiastica
DR17 -3.01 dB -26.07 dB 1:58 11-Theatralis et hipocritae / Ruralis / Alter indica perfecta
DR21 -3.00 dB -28.75 dB 4:34 12-De tolerentia aetherea / Fuga ficta et carrus triumphalis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR18

 

[maty]

David Bowie - Aladdin Sane (1973), Vinyl, RCA, Germany

David Bowie - Aladdin Sane (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -1.86 dB -14.61 dB A1 Watch That Man
DR12 -2.28 dB -16.38 dB A2 Aladdin Sane
DR12 -0.53 dB -14.72 dB A3 Drive-In Saturday
DR12 -0.67 dB -14.28 dB A4 Panic In Detroit
DR12 -2.31 dB -15.29 dB A5 Cracked Actor
DR12 -1.88 dB -16.04 dB B1 Time
DR13 -1.41 dB -16.10 dB B2 The Prettiest Star
DR11 -2.71 dB -15.58 dB B3 Let's Spend The Night Together
DR12 -0.64 dB -14.42 dB B4 The Jean Genie
DR11 -3.51 dB -18.10 dB B5 Lady Grinning Soul
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR12


CD, 2015 DR 9, vade retro satana

David Bowie - Aladdin Sane - Amazon.com Music


dr.loudness-war David Bowie - Aladdin Sane

 

[Shadrach]

It's funny though isn't it. Audiophiles spend thousands of pounds on equipment to play this compressed 'music' and then they'll go on various forums including ASR and tell you how lifelike and realistic the sounds is coming from their 'hi fi's'.
Kind of makes me wonder if they've ever heard live music...................uncompressed of course.