Loudness compression, loudness wars.. What exactly it is and why is it happening?

[MRC01]

Others come here to complain about how compressed and over-processed most recordings are, seeking recordings that sound natural like a live performance

 

[Shadrach]

Others come here to complain about how compressed and over-processed most recordings are, seeking recordings that sound natural like a live performance

I don't read those posts. It will never happen while we use stereo equipment.

 

[GGroch]

It is also worth mention that loudness war is strictly connected to mp3 era (around 1996 if I recall ?). Need for listening music in cars or portable players outside........

Your point about reducing dynamic range for mobile & portable use is a good one, but this is not at all new. AM radio (MW for much of the world) was for a long time the driving force (pun intended) behind pop music sales. Compressing dynamics had major benefits here for 2 reasons, first AM radio is limited to about 30dB dynamic range, (the number was google sourced) and second, as you point out, kids usually listened to music in mobile or social portable environments (a portable radio at the beach for example), where wide dynamic range is a real detriment. Pop music for release to radio stations usually had compressed dynamics, and the associated 45 rpm records (and probably LPs as well) followed suite so that they sounded like the radio versions and could be heard at a party.

I have not seen much documentation on this, but I would be surprised if 8-track and Cassette audio was not similarly compressed, both for technological and utilitarian purposes.

I am not sure if it is still a feature, but a lot of higher end auto sound head units in the 70s/80s had selectable dynamic range compression built in. (As pointed out earlier, Bob Carver's Phase Linear and notably dbx made dynamic range expanders to do the opposite.) They were needed because compression has been an issue for quite a long while.

I think there is an assumption that with the advent of digital recordings that CAN have wide dynamic range that the need for these devices is gone. Not true I guess.

 

[JJB70]

Given that the home audio market has shifted to lifestyle type BT speakers I can't see things improving. If you want room filling sound from one of these little boxes or cylinders (and it is remarkable just how much sound they can pump out) then you need compression. Unfortunately the alternative of owning a decent system which can exploit high dynamic range is increasingly a niche within a niche.

 

[maty]

Art Blakey And The Jazz Messengers - Moanin' (1959), Vinyl, Music Matters 2014, US

Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Moanin' (Vinyl, LP, Album, Limited Edition, Reissue, Remastered) | Discogs

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -2.03 dB -19.21 dB 9:55 01-Moanin'
DR12 0.00 dB -16.02 dB 4:51 02-Are You Real
DR14 -0.44 dB -18.46 dB 6:13 03-Along Came Betty
DR12 -0.04 dB -15.47 dB 7:35 04-The Drum Thunder (Miniature) Suite
DR13 -0.39 dB -17.23 dB 6:18 05-Blues March
DR12 -1.86 dB -17.35 dB 5:52 06-Come Rain Or Come Shine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 6
Official DR value: DR13


CD, 1999 DR10 vade retro satana

Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers - Moanin' - Amazon.com Music

dr.louness-war Art Blakey And The Jazz Messengers - Moanin'


Moanin' - Wikipedia

Art Blakey - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jazz_Messengers

 

[Ralf Stocker]

The best I found DR18 out of thousands:
DR18 -1.90 dB -22.66 dB Dire Straits - Money For Nothing
DR18 -0.00 dB -19.66 dB George Michael - I Want Your Sex
DR18 -0.00 dB -18.21 dB Hermes Houseband - I Will Survive

Music that breathes!
DR18 -0.10 dB -24.23 dB Mozart - Exsultate Jubilate, KV165 - 14 - Mozart-Exsultate jubilate, K. 165 I Exsultate, jubilate
DR19 -10.43 dB -36.51 dB Händel - Alexander's Feast - CD2 - 10
DR21 -2.87 dB -29.42 dB Joseph Haydn - Die Jahreszeiten - 09 - Der Herbst- Arie- Seht auf den breiten Wiesen hin!

 

[solderdude]

It has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread but given the continuous stream of comparisons between vinyl and CD releases where (not surprisingly) the vinyl always shows a few dB higher DR doesn't mean the perceived DR is actually different as well.

One cannot determine the DR value of vinyl in the same way as a CD.

The ratings cannot be compared and no conclusions can be drawn on the generated DR values.

 

[Juhazi]

^Give us a clue, why not? Vinyl has much lower SN ratio...

 

[solderdude]

See post #116

 

[maty]

... the vinyl always shows a few dB higher DR doesn't mean the perceived DR is actually different as well.

I am in complete disagreement. Good jazz and classical recordings usually have the same DR on CD or vinyl.

"Modern" classical recordings sound better in CD o SACD than vinyl.

The problem, with modern, lies in the interpretation quality, very improvable. In addition, the tuning has been rising and rising, being more spectacular at first but unbearable after a while of listening.

 

[Juhazi]

^^I disagree with that video. My experience with DR meter is thin, but consistent of my own LPs ripped with Audacity. Obviously the extremly high DR values of some vinyl rips are fake or manipulated.

I don't usually check DR value at all, looking at compressed waveform in Audacity is much more informative.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-why-is-it-happening.3392/page-8#post-153920

 

[maty]

Btw, just now

Wilhem Furtwangler, Philharmonia Orchestra - Beethoven - Symphony No. 9 (1954), CD, Tahra, France

Beethoven, Wilhelm Furtwangler, Philharmonia Orchestra, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elsa Cavelti, Ernst Hafliger, Otto Edelmann - Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 in Re Mineur, Op. 125 (Lucerne 1954) (Tahra) - Amazon.com Music

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Lucerne-Festival/dp/B000001OFV

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -12.36 dB -28.63 dB 2:50 01-Furtwängler parle de la Neuvieme Symphonie
DR11 -0.01 dB -15.13 dB 17:59 02-I. Allegro ma non troppo - un poco maestoso
DR12 0.00 dB -17.32 dB 12:01 03-II. Molto vivace - presto - molto vivace
DR18 0.00 dB -22.77 dB 19:37 04-III. Adagio molto e cantabile - andante moderato
DR12 0.00 dB -18.39 dB 3:07 05-IV. I. Presto
DR11 0.00 dB -16.25 dB 7:42 06-IV. II. Allegro assai
DR11 -0.01 dB -15.44 dB 4:05 07-IV. III. Allegro assai vivace - alla marcia
DR10 0.00 dB -13.95 dB 10:39 08-IV. IV. Andante maestoso - allegro energico - prestissimo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 8
Official DR value: DR12


[German] Wilhelm Furtwangler – Wikipedia

Wilhelm Furtwangler - Wikipedia


I have 1942 (Berlin) and 1953 (Vienna) recordings too.

 

[solderdude]

It's perfectly fine to disagree.. and even disagree strongly. Doesn't make it less true.
The only way to 'prove' your point is what the guy in the video has done.
Send a master to a vinyl manufacturing plant and rip the vinyl and compare.
This is what the guy did.
One can argue all day long about mastering for the cutting lathe or the used cartridge and how well the cartridge matched to the pre-amp.
The amount of rumble in the rip can also skew a resulting number for instance without it being audible.
In the end vinyl from the same master is measurably different and sometimes even audibly different from the actual master.

So ... there WILL be differences and they can result in different or similar DR number. It is just a number and in the case of vinyl isn't an exact number as is evident by the video (same master different DR number)

It is perfectly fine to enjoy vinyl. It also is perfectly fine to prefer it over digital.

Arguably the vinyl medium itself is very flawed and does not have one thing it does better (except for FR extension in case of redbook) but that has nothing to do with with DR ratings anyway.
I find it amazing that our hearing is crappy enough that even a medium inferior as it is apparently is already good enough for audiophile music lovers.
And yes... cared for well made pressings played back on a good rig can sound every bit as good as a CD or high res file. It can even sound 'better' when one's brain chooses so.

 

[Soniclife]

The amount of rumble in the rip can also skew a resulting number

Would higher distortion also create louder peaks, increasing the DR?

 

[maty]

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5796292.html

The Visit, CD

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -0.92 dB -17.29 dB 5:09 01-All Souls Night
DR12 -3.05 dB -19.79 dB 4:21 02-Bonny Portmore
DR13 -1.36 dB -17.74 dB 3:41 03-Between The Shadows
DR14 -1.81 dB -19.92 dB 11:34 04-The Lady Of Shalott
DR13 -3.45 dB -20.50 dB 4:26 05-Greensleeves
DR12 -1.80 dB -17.21 dB 4:10 06-Tango To Evora
DR12 -2.62 dB -21.14 dB 4:57 07-Courtyard Lullaby
DR13 -3.19 dB -19.44 dB 5:45 08-The Old Ways
DR14 -3.16 dB -23.02 dB 5:02 09-Cymbeline
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR13


The Visit, Vinyl

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -1.26 dB -17.94 dB 5:08 01-All Souls Night
DR12 -2.14 dB -19.46 dB 4:25 02-Bonny Portmore
DR14 -2.34 dB -18.72 dB 3:43 03-Between The Shadows
DR14 -2.82 dB -21.11 dB 11:38 04-The Lady Of Shalott
DR13 -4.18 dB -21.61 dB 4:28 05-Greensleeves
DR12 -2.96 dB -18.17 dB 4:16 06-Tango To Evora
DR13 -4.28 dB -22.65 dB 4:56 07-Courtyard Lullaby
DR13 -1.01 dB -19.20 dB 5:47 08-The Old Ways
DR11 -4.18 dB -19.54 dB 5:09 09-Cymbeline
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR13

 

[solderdude]

Well the individual songs have different DR..
By chance the total DR values of the album happens to show the same values (rounded off to the nearest whole number no doubt)

 

[maty]

Trust me. I have everything: vinyl, cassette, R2R, SACD and digital files. Well, what I do not have is a streaming service, I do not need it, much less I want it.

I am only interested in the best sound and interpretation and not the format.

 

[Juhazi]

I like this article http://productionadvice.co.uk/how-loud-is-too-loud-when-dr-values-just-arent-enough/

"The answer lies in the limitations of the “DR” value as calculated by the Offline TT Meter. The truth is, it’s a VERY blunt instrument.

The DR value only tells us how loud the loudest moments of an audio file are, and averages these values over all the tracks of an album. This is a quick, convenient, familiar shorthand – which is why I still use it regularly – but it tells us nothing about the internal dynamics of a song or album, and in some cases can be highly misleading.

To really understand loudness, to make better judgements and comparisons, we need to use more sophisticated tools – and of course, we need to listen. "

 

[maty]

If your stereo does not allow you to discern, on same track, between DR14 and 3 dB less, DR11 then you have at least one bottleneck in it. DR14 sounds better but you need a good/better amplifier with more watts or loudspeakers more efficient.

Of course, with good/very recordings. With acoustic instruments and "natural" voices is more easy.

 

[solderdude]

I totally agree with Ian Shepherd. It is just a tool and says nothing about the difference between the softest and loudest pieces of music.
And this is where technically digital 'shines' in comparison with with vinyl.

The DR value can tell us something, like how much (audio) compression was used to comply to wishes of record labels to provide 'loud' music that still sounds 'decent' playing from mobile phone speakers.
Let's face it.. that's where the majority of listeners is and in cars.
That's where the target market is for pop.

Trust me. ...

I am only interested in the best sound and interpretation and not the format.

If you are only interested in the interpretation and sound you would describe things about the album, the music, what it does to you and about the artist and would not compare DR ratings of different formats that literally say NOTHING about the sound quality nor the music.