Yes, but then leave the compressed music for the car, subway and near-to-hammer listening and give the choice to the listener what kind of music dynamic manipulation he wants to listen. And it does not happen with "popular" music during last 20-30 years, we have moved to DR5-6 standard even with good performers. And this is unlistenable on a good system under home conditions when the music is not intended as a background of the Sunday family dinner. The only exception are some smaller companies producing classical music recordings. If I want to hear well recorded sound, I listen to classical music only. How many people have the same preferences? If most listen to contemporary pop, why to discuss then the SINAD > 120dB?? Crazy world. We have the best technology and worst pop recordings ever.
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Loudness compression, loudness wars.. What exactly it is and why is it happening?
- Thread starter Krunok
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Yes, but then leave the compressed music for the car, subway and near-to-hammer listening and give the choice to the listener what kind of music dynamic manipulation he wants to listen. And it does not happen with "popular" music during last 20-30 years, we have moved to DR5-6 standard even with good performers. And this is unlistenable on a good system under home conditions when the music is not intended as a background of the Sunday family dinner. The only exception are some smaller companies producing classical music recordings. If I want to hear well recorded sound, I listen to classical music only. How many people have the same preferences? If most listen to contemporary pop, why to discuss then the SINAD > 120dB?? Crazy world. We have the best technology and worst pop recordings ever.
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I think you misunderstood my point.
There may be little or nothing gained subjectively with more than 60 db of dynamic range. Tasteful compression which reduces anything greater than 60 db to 50-60 db of DNR may even sound a little better.
Going with much more reduction of DNR by additional dynamic compression does not help and eventually makes the resulting music impossible to sound very good imo. Less than 40 db DNR can be hard to make sound really good. So I don't buy the idea a ton of compression for people using ear buds in noisy environs makes any sense. Myself in such situations, I simply decide that isn't a fit place to listen to music.
I fully agree it is ironic we have the best recording technology ever, and the worst recordings. Even more ironic is the super compression is a result of better technology and not despite it.
I've done a little recording, and started out as a two microphone purist. I still prefer that for my own purposes, but recognize it isn't common because it doesn't do what the tremendous majority of music listeners want it to do.
Here are some classic recording:
Sting -
Sting - Soul Cages 1991
Sting - Nothing Like The Sun
String - Fields of Gold - The Best of Sting (1984-1994) - recorded
Remixes seem to reduce dynamic rage.
Sting was an early embracer of CD, back in the day that they had DDD on the disk indicating digital recording, mastering, and distribution.
I suppose vinyl is ADA or ADA, but not likely AAA for popular music.
- Rich
Sting -
Sting - Soul Cages 1991
Sting - Nothing Like The Sun
String - Fields of Gold - The Best of Sting (1984-1994) - recorded
Remixes seem to reduce dynamic rage.
Sting was an early embracer of CD, back in the day that they had DDD on the disk indicating digital recording, mastering, and distribution.
I suppose vinyl is ADA or ADA, but not likely AAA for popular music.
- Rich
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MetalDaze
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On the contrary, quite a lot of vinyl can be found as AAA.
All of the vinyl from audiophile labels like AP & MOFI I mentioned previously almost exclusively use an all analog process. And where this is not possible, they annotate and categorize it differently for sale.
But happily its not only expensive audiophile records. My Jimi Hendrix "Experience" "Electric Lady Land" and "Band of Gypsies" are all AAA. I think they were around $20 - $25 each. There are definitely a few others I have from pressing plants like QRP and well priced for what you get
All of the vinyl from audiophile labels like AP & MOFI I mentioned previously almost exclusively use an all analog process. And where this is not possible, they annotate and categorize it differently for sale.
But happily its not only expensive audiophile records. My Jimi Hendrix "Experience" "Electric Lady Land" and "Band of Gypsies" are all AAA. I think they were around $20 - $25 each. There are definitely a few others I have from pressing plants like QRP and well priced for what you get
Robin L
Master Contributor
One has to actively seek out AAA LPs, the current default involves a digital master or intermaster.
MetalDaze
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I can't deny that. Once I found out that this is now the standard, especially on newer music being pressed to vinyl (which makes sense with today's technology) I began doing exactly that, and researching which pressings were worth spending my money on if I really wanted it. There are exceptions and digital masters cut to vinyl can sound very good so long as those behind the curtain know what they're doing.
But I have a few that I don't even want to resell, because they are just awful Lol.
If you're saying 'groupthink is always right', boy, do I have a delicatessen to sell you.
I already showed up your argument about my age; what next, 'fill out your equipment profile'?
Like I said, I've noticed for a long time posters on QQ giving raves to remixes of music they're admittedly unfamiliar with. It's a funny thing to me. I've mentioned it a few times there.
Well, yeah...my familiarity with the music and recordings informs my 'slant' on remixes. Why should it be otherwise? You seem highly put out by the very idea...or is that you are a Steven Wilson 'fan-boy'?
I'll be sure to pass on your thoughts to the site's owner/designer, maestro. (My job there is curating content.)
BTW, you never explained what my 'sour grapes' are supposed to be. Just sayin'.
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Just tossing another carrot in the stew here, but radio puts another level (no pun intended) on it. Radio stations must limit their peaks, so as not to overmodulate and encroach on neighboring stations—by law. So they need a hard limit (clip), and a limiter so that the clip is reached as a last resort. I'm pretty sure most rock stations compress as well, to keep levels hot and listers engages, especially those driving, but broadcast is not my expertise so I'll leave it at that.
A big aspect of the loudness war is making things sound relatively good on crappy equipment, like boom boxes. I've seen Andrew Scheps (Chili Peppers, Adele, Metallica) speak a few times, and he often addresses the loudness wars in an unapologetic way—once he said that he got satisfaction from walking by someone's iPhone with one of his songs playing, and it sounding good.
Also, I should make clear exactly what is meant by "dynamic range" in the sense of something truly squashed due to the loudness war. It's not simply a reduction in dynamics. It's most apparent when you view the waveform of a crushed tune. The overview waveform is often a solid block for the worst offenders, there is no dip at all in the big picture. It's really not exactly the kind of dynamic range choices many are talking about here. And don't get the idea we're only talking about heavy metal here. Here's Schep's mix of Adele's Don't You Remember, that I did a quick capture of:
And, as you can see in the Dynamic Range DB, Adele's album releases on vinyl have a much large DR figure than the same album released on CD. The target audience is considered.
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I was with you until your last sentence.
The reason the vinyl has a larger DR rating isn't because they considered the audience. You give them too much credit. There are differences in the DR rating you will obtain from vinyl vs CD even if the same track was put onto both mediums. The vinyl will read higher. It also maybe the master to the vinyl has to be backed off just a little to prevent problems cutting the disk. It isn't because they recognize one buyer wants more DR than the other.
Well, dam, I should have stopped while I was ahead! You are correct, of course. I was going by a memory of an interview where they someone the extra care they made for the vinyl release, and didn't think about it. CD and vinyl may use a different master, but it's not necessary as long as the master accommodates the vinyl needs. And my friend Ian, who is a mastering engineer and has also co-developed loudness metering tools, says it's more complicated, with the metering not telling an reliable story (which means the better numbers I described for Adele's 25 might be a mirage):
Why the TT Meter doesn't work on vinyl
valerianf
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Thank you Blumlein, EJ3 and Earlevel for your explanations.
I stopped listening music at home during the last 9 years because of the poor quality level of the sources (I.e. : lack of dynamic).
Using Amazon music HD since 1 month I am starting again to listen music.
I understand that thanks to HD streaming services the new recordings may get some more dynamic.
It was a long waiting time...
I stopped listening music at home during the last 9 years because of the poor quality level of the sources (I.e. : lack of dynamic).
Using Amazon music HD since 1 month I am starting again to listen music.
I understand that thanks to HD streaming services the new recordings may get some more dynamic.
It was a long waiting time...
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danadam
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I haven't noticed.
From time to time I click through "Popular Music Videos" on youtube and check "Volume / Normalized" in "Stats for nerds". It rarely gets better than this:
The interesting now is at least there is some incentive to be better. Or maybe I should say disincentive to crush. Songs that have been crushed are now turned down by most or all of the streaming systems. Same block-waveform profile, but with the volume reduced so that it doesn't go rail to rail. this is referred to as the "loudness penalty"—the degree to which a song is turned down in Apple Music, for instance, because it's too crushed.
danadam
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There is no such thing there. There is volume normalization.
Yes, thankfully.
Oh you're right, SORRY. Streaming quality, volume normalization and volume level are the settings available.
tuga
Major Contributor
I hope this hasn't been posted here before:
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
It is exactly how TV advertising sound track look like!!!
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They know that come add time, your going to get up & go to the bathroom to make room for the stop at the kitchen for that next adult libation.
So they want that paid for advertising to follow you there, wherever you go.
I don't have a stable enough signal to stream. But I have hundreds of both albums and CD's that were made prior to 97, many still in the cellophane.
For the albums I use a Technics SL-M3 with a linear tracking titanium tone arm with a NOS SHURE ULTRA 300 (T4P) at 1.25 grams. For the CD's, an oppo 205. That will have to do until I get set up to digitize what I want and sell, donate, whatever, the rest. Maybe digitize my RTR stuff too. That will be a late next year project, if my other projects go well.
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