Listening to music in multichannel mode

[dartinbout]

I was not recommending them because I thought them ideal but because they made somewhat radical choices in listener/performer perspectives. In fact, the perspectives change from track to track by intention.

This kind of wacky but interesting

I've attended some small, orchestra\choir performances, in churches, in SF, that have configuration of 1,2,4 and 5 and this significantly resembles those. Motet 3 is really crazy.

 

[krabapple]

Apple Music Atmos tracks have the bass and/or subwoofer channel mixed WAY too hot. It's like they've attempted to bake a Harman style "room curve" into every track, when anyone who knows what they're doing already have that baked into their system. So you wind up getting this massively overbearing double boost.

/
There are multichannel releases where after ripping to a file, I have gone in and silenced/removed the LFE. LFE content really isn't necessary for the vast majority of surround music releases. It's meant for instances of extraordinarily loud and low bass , like gunshots, cannon fire, earthquakes, asteroid collisions.... On music releases I suspect it's mainly there so that people without proper bass management don't complain 'hey, nothing's coming out of my subwoofer!'.

In a properly bass managed system, bass in the other channels will still be routed to the subwoofer, and that's usually enough.

 

[tomkatt]

.2 being two Atmos height channels? Do they get used by the upmixer a lot, do they make a difference in immersion? I'm torn between upgrading from 4.1 to 6.1 or 4.1.2.

By the way, for me the center channel ruins the front soundstage witdth even with enter spread on, so I removed the center and only had good times since. Did anyone else notice this, any thoughts?

Yeah, the .2 are heights. When upscaled, they mostly echo the left and right front, enhancing them a bit, but it doesn't add much unless it's actual atmos / spatial music.

As for the center, a lot of times it's turned up for movies, if you turn it down a bit for music it's fine. Very good for vocals, but in music only tracks like classical or jazz it can be a bit problematic if it's emphasized too much.

 

[dartinbout]

/
There are multichannel releases where after ripping to a file, I have gone in and silenced/removed the LFE. LFE content really isn't necessary for the vast majority of surround music releases. It's meant for instances of extraordinarily loud and low bass , like gunshots, cannon fire, earthquakes, asteroid collisions.... On music releases I suspect it's mainly there so that people without proper bass management don't complain 'hey, nothing's coming out of my subwoofer!'.

In a properly bass managed system, bass in the other channels will still be routed to the subwoofer, and that's usually enough.

So with proper speaker mgmt, why do you need the center and side\rears then, for music? Why not remove them? They are just extraneous. You obviously are wiser then whoever mixed these albums. Your speaker setup doesn't need the extra extraneous "noise". Look how much room you will save! /s

This certainly isn't the silliest thing I've read on ASR, but it is WAAAAY up the list. I don't know ATMOS from an ashcan but well produced and recorded MC music needs all the channels there. Maybe "proper bass managed system" isn't quite as proper as you think or.......your MC music leaves something to be desired.

 

[Dal1as]

I liked the old logic7 and now use the Aura3d upmixer for stereo. I use 1 input on the 6700 for this in which I can vary the channel levels and have a seperate bass curve for music. It's all personal choice and what you like. There is no right way. This is with a 7.3.4 setup. The rear surrounds doing this really helps with the ambience of the room.

 

[bungle]

I have to admit sometimes I enjoy Circle Surround II more than stereo.

 

[JonK99]

I spent a good part of last weekend running through the entire Talking Heads catalog which was recently remixed for Atmos by Jerry Harrison. Sounded great on my 5.2.4 system.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

So with proper speaker mgmt, why do you need the center and side\rears then, for music? Why not remove them? They are just extraneous. You obviously are wiser then whoever mixed these albums. Your speaker setup doesn't need the extra extraneous "noise". Look how much room you will save! /s

This certainly isn't the silliest thing I've read on ASR, but it is WAAAAY up the list. I don't know ATMOS from an ashcan but well produced and recorded MC music needs all the channels there. Maybe "proper bass managed system" isn't quite as proper as you think or.......your MC music leaves something to be desired.

"I don't know ATMOS from an ashcan..."

You may have answered your own question.

 

[dartinbout]

After attending movies in a Dolby Atmos theater, I can certainly see (hear) the benefits for movies\tv. For music, when heard in Best Buy, it seemed overwrought. It is comparable to a third breast on a beautiful woman. Interesting but hardly necessary, in the grand scheme of things. Of course, this is just an opinion. Those who possess multiple sets of ears, grafted, willy-nilly about their "domes" might have a different view.

 

[Chrispy]

After attending movies in a Dolby Atmos theater, I can certainly see (hear) the benefits for movies\tv. For music, when heard in Best Buy, it seemed overwrought. It is comparable to a third breast on a beautiful woman. Interesting but hardly necessary, in the grand scheme of things. Of course, this is just an opinion. Those who possess multiple sets of ears, grafted, willy-nilly about their "domes" might have a different view.

Coulda just been the BB setup?

 

[dartinbout]

Maybe, but I'm just not that interested in music channels, at extreme vertical elevations, across the front of my MLP.

 

[napfkuchen]

I was streaming Apple Music from my Mac mini M1 to my Denon X3700H, but turns out the Mac mini M1 can not do full Atmos, so tried instead my Apple TV 4K, which is full Atmos capable, soundstage is now even better, but the best part is the volume balance between Atmos song and stereo songs is now perfect, no need to correct volumes anymore, I am really impressed with the little black box.

So the x3700h itself is not capable of apple music spatial audio / atmos playback via a connected Denon HEOS device?

 

[Sancus]

So the x3700h itself is not capable of apple music spatial audio / atmos playback via a connected Denon HEOS device?

Nothing is capable of apple spatial music playback except apple devices, by design. Apple only ever wants you to have a good experience if you buy their hardware. Any Atmos AVR works fine with an Apple TV connected to it by HDMI.

 

[krabapple]

So with proper speaker mgmt, why do you need the center and side\rears then, for music? Why not remove them? They are just extraneous. You obviously are wiser then whoever mixed these albums. Your speaker setup doesn't need the extra extraneous "noise". Look how much room you will save! /s

The cases that have certainly warranted LFE removal for me, are when a quadraphonic mix has simply had an LFE 'created' by duplicating bass that's in the other channels. (typically the same case for and added center too). There are many other cases in true 5.1 mixes where the LFE channel is so low level, , and also is just duplicated bass, that it could effectively be eliminated. But I don't bother.

A three channel front line has actual sonic benefits over two channel; this was first recognized at the dawn of home audio. Even apart from that, center channels in modern surround mixes often have elements that are unique to that channel. Which simply isn't the case for LFE.

This certainly isn't the silliest thing I've read on ASR, but it is WAAAAY up the list. I don't know ATMOS from an ashcan but well produced and recorded MC music needs all the channels there. Maybe "proper bass managed system" isn't quite as proper as you think or.......your MC music leaves something to be desired.

Or maybe you don't know quite know what you're talking about?

 

[napfkuchen]

Nothing is capable of apple spatial music playback except apple devices, by design. Apple only ever wants you to have a good experience if you buy their hardware. Any Atmos AVR works fine with an Apple TV connected to it by HDMI.

That's not the answer I hoped for ... but thanks for clearing it up.

 

[dartinbout]

The cases that have certainly warranted LFE removal for me, are when a quadraphonic mix has simply had an LFE 'created' by duplicating bass that's in the other channels. (typically the same case for and added center too). There are many other cases in true 5.1 mixes where the LFE channel is so low level, , and also is just duplicated bass, that it could effectively be eliminated. But I don't bother.

A three channel front line has actual sonic benefits over two channel; this was first recognized at the dawn of home audio. Even apart from that, center channels in modern surround mixes often have elements that are unique to that channel. Which simply isn't the case for LFE.


Or maybe you don't know quite know what you're talking about?

It's always a possibility to speak more eloquently from the descending colon but in this case, I think I resonate tonsil-ly. That silliness aside, I have music recorded to be played in mono, stereo, binaural, 3, 4 , 5, 5.1, 6.1, 7 and eight. Speaking of 4 channel (not true quad actually) that great innovator Owsley, both sonically and "psychodelicately" recorded Airplane, Fleetwood, Allman's and of course the Dead, to played equally amongst corner speakers.

Bears Sonic Journals - Owsley Stanley Foundation

owsleystanleyfoundation.org

 

[Beershaun]

That's not the answer I hoped for ... but thanks for clearing it up.

That is the Apple "walled garden" experience. It's a very nice place as long as you only use and buy apple products.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

When Mr Dolby inaugurated his first Mch version he allocated 1 channel to the background “noise”. It was clear that a true music venue ambience needs many many speakers to be simulated. We may be marching into this direction, but will hardly reach that goal ever. Every visit to a concert hall or jazz venue will make the impossibility of the effort clear. But immersive sound opens a new way to present music. Placing instruments on different speakers de-clutters the performance and gives a new feeling to it. I at least think it is the way to go and place it on equal footage to a traditional live concert.

 

[BJL]

Would you mind naming some of the particularly notable performances that highlight the advantages of a surround system?

I'm not the original poster, but anyway a couple of examples, Stop Making Sense anniversary blu ray, the "studio" soundtrack choice; most of the King Crimson concert videos, particularly deja Vrooom (which has been reissued, to my knowledge unfortunately only in one of the box sets in a superior blu ray version). the Festival Express documentary has excellent concert audio, if the music works for you (late '60s U.S. West Coast & Canadian rock mostly); Yello Live in Berlin (4.0), this concert was in 4 channels to begin with.

Back to the original topic: My current set up is 5.1.4 and these days I listen to most stereo recordings with dts Neural:X post processing. I found Dolby to be a bit diffuse and undifferentiated from album to album (although I didn't spend a lot of time comparing as I didn't care for the Dolby processing).

For example, a concert recording in a jazz club gets a somewhat fuller sound (perhaps because of the center channel) with improved detail and subtle ambience from the various surround/height speakers. On the other hand, for a rock band club recording, Neural:X gives a more aggressive surround channels, accurately, in my opinion, reflecting that club sound.

By contrast, in the case of heavily processed studio recordings, Neural:X provides an expansive, immersive surround. It is uncanny, actually, some recordings sound like they were actual multi-channel mixes. Some examples - I've been spending a lot time recently with Miles Davis - his recordings assembled and edited by Teo Macero are astonishing to begin with, but go to another, higher level with 5.1.4 dts post processing; specifically On the Corner, Tribute to Jack Johnson, Get Up With It, and the incredible Go Ahead John from the album Big Fun, among many others.

Has anyone else compared dts X with dolby surround?

I listen to mono recordings in the original mono, through one speaker. I haven't found multi-channel processing adds anything for those recordings, I do listen to PCM 4.0-5.1 with dts processing (e.g. SACD) and of course, I listen to Atmos direct without further processing, other than Dirac room correction.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I'm not the original poster, but anyway a couple of examples, Stop Making Sense anniversary blu ray, the "studio" soundtrack choice; most of the King Crimson concert videos, particularly deja Vrooom (which has been reissued, to my knowledge unfortunately only in one of the box sets in a superior blu ray version). the Festival Express documentary has excellent concert audio, if the music works for you (late '60s U.S. West Coast & Canadian rock mostly); Yello Live in Berlin (4.0), this concert was in 4 channels to begin with.

Back to the original topic: My current set up is 5.1.4 and these days I listen to most stereo recordings with dts Neural:X post processing. I found Dolby to be a bit diffuse and undifferentiated from album to album (although I didn't spend a lot of time comparing as I didn't care for the Dolby processing).

For example, a concert recording in a jazz club gets a somewhat fuller sound (perhaps because of the center channel) with improved detail and subtle ambience from the various surround/height speakers. On the other hand, for a rock band club recording, Neural:X gives a more aggressive surround channels, accurately, in my opinion, reflecting that club sound.

By contrast, in the case of heavily processed studio recordings, Neural:X provides an expansive, immersive surround. It is uncanny, actually, some recordings sound like they were actual multi-channel mixes. Some examples - I've been spending a lot time recently with Miles Davis - his recordings assembled and edited by Teo Macero are astonishing to begin with, but go to another, higher level with 5.1.4 dts post processing; specifically On the Corner, Tribute to Jack Johnson, Get Up With It, and the incredible Go Ahead John from the album Big Fun, among many others.

Has anyone else compared dts X with dolby surround?

I listen to mono recordings in the original mono, through one speaker. I haven't found multi-channel processing adds anything for those recordings, I do listen to PCM 4.0-5.1 with dts processing (e.g. SACD) and of course, I listen to Atmos direct without further processing, other than Dirac room correction.

I added rears to my system and it seems that only the Dolby upscaler uses those. I agree that Dolby sounds more diffused than dts-x. It gets better with adding Dirac which tightens the sound field a bit. I usually stick with Dolby.