Kii/8C PSI shootout at Kore Studios

[Soniclife]

I meant the jbl 705p and 8, if my memory is right.

Found it...
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-705p-708p.1303/post-61968

Failed 50% of the time to tell what was playing!

 

[gingerbeer]

Has anyone who dislikes the 8Cs been found?

Yep, me.

Dislike isn’t the right word, but I had both side by side in my lounge room and kept the kiis as they sounded better and easier to use with the controller.

My circumstances are different to the above as I have a difficult room (open plan living/dining with nothing symmetrical, lots of hard surfaces), little kids crawling around, less than perfect hearing nowadays, wife considerations, etc.

That said I had plenty of mates around to check during the two weeks of auditioning and they all agreed with the kii>8c verdict in my particular circumstances.

Would I have kept the 8c if it was auditioned in isolation? - genuinely not sure to be honest.

 

[Wombat]

Show us the science.

(This forum needs a catchphrase)

I was just getting with the subjective tone of this thread.

 

[Wombat]

Absolutely. No amount of woofing tacked on a small speaker is ever going to give it qualities associated with large horns, panels, and maybe large multi tweeter/midrange driver midranges. Their ability to move large amounts of air with speed and low distortion bring a "live" sound that I've not seen equaled otherwise.

Like this?

 

[Wombat]

She’s actually great but the shows been hijacked by some leftist liberal agenda and reduced to ashes unfortunately.

At least he doesn't have a man-bun, yet.

 

[Dialectic]

Yep, me.

Dislike isn’t the right word, but I had both side by side in my lounge room and kept the kiis as they sounded better and easier to use with the controller.

My circumstances are different to the above as I have a difficult room (open plan living/dining with nothing symmetrical, lots of hard surfaces), little kids crawling around, less than perfect hearing nowadays, wife considerations, etc.

That said I had plenty of mates around to check during the two weeks of auditioning and they all agreed with the kii>8c verdict in my particular circumstances.

Would I have kept the 8c if it was auditioned in isolation? - genuinely not sure to be honest.

There's been one other poster here who preferred the Kiis to the 8Cs, and I'm glad we have some more diversity of opinion.

I heard them in a side-by-side demonstration at @Purité Audio, and unless I'm going deaf, they sounded extremely similar. The Kiis sounded perhaps slightly more detailed: at the time, I thought that could be attributed to a slight difference in frequency response between the Kiis and the 8Cs, and @mitchco's comparative measurements of the speakers in his room seem to support this hypothesis. Other points--particularly bass output capability--seemed to weigh in favor of the 8Cs.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

There's been one other poster here who preferred the Kiis to the 8Cs, and I'm glad we have some more diversity of opinion.

I heard them in a side-by-side demonstration at @Purité Audio, and unless I'm going deaf, they sounded extremely similar. The Kiis sounded perhaps slightly more detailed: at the time, I thought that could be attributed to a slight difference in frequency response between the Kiis and the 8Cs, and @mitchco's comparative measurements of the speakers in his room seem to support this hypothesis. Other points--particularly bass output capability--seemed to weigh in favor of the 8Cs.

I’ve heard both (not side by side in the same room). The thing I struggle with is what does it even mean to say what they “sound like”.
Even side by side, changing a setting or two would probably be enough to change a preference for one speaker over the other.

I guess if you had enough time you could iteratively adjust and readjust each speaker until subjectively, they can no longer be improved. Only then would there be a meaningful comparison - sort of

 

[Dialectic]

I’ve heard both (not side by side in the same room). The thing I struggle with is what does it even mean to say what they “sound like”.
Even side by side, changing a setting or two would probably be enough to change a preference for one speaker over the other.

I guess if you had enough time you could iteratively adjust and readjust each speaker until subjectively, they can no longer be improved. Only then would there be a meaningful comparison - sort of

I agree entirely. In my listen-off, the 8Cs prevailed only because of their greater output capability. (There's no replacement for displacement.) The Kiis and 8Cs measure similarly, sound similar, and do similar things.

Most ASR members seem to agree that two well-designed amps, preamps, or DACs with similar specifications are likely to sound similar. Perhaps the same is becoming true of loudspeakers.

 

[restorer-john]

Most ASR members seem to agree that two well-designed amps, preamps, or DACs with similar specifications are likely to sound similar. Perhaps the same is becoming true of loudspeakers.

The biggest differences will always be the speakers. That's where the rubber hits the road so to speak. They have to either fight with, or get along with the room you put them in.

I find amplifiers have discernible variations in their sound, more-so than preamplifiers and digital sources (well designed digital sources- not broken designs). I don't believe for a second that people hear the night and day differences in D/A converters they claim to.

 

[Guermantes]

Does anyone know any professional musicians who are proper into audio?

Karajan apparently was:

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/2-07.html

"The PCM-1 engineers who had borne the brunt of so much criticism did receive some encouragement. One person who praised the PCM prototype processor as a master recorder for use in studios was the world-renowned Austrian conductor Herbert von Karajan. Maestro Karajan was a longtime friend of Morita. One day in September 1978, when Karajan was visiting the Morita home, Morita asked Nakajima, "Since Mr. Karajan has come here, isn't there something we can play for him?" "Let's play him something on the PCM recorder," replied Nakajima, happily carrying the prototype into the room.

They played a performance of Karajan's that had been secretly recorded during a rehearsal in Salzburg. Rather than scolding them for this unauthorized taping, Karajan was profoundly moved. "This is a new sound," he said. Extremely interested in machines in general and in new recording technology in particular, Karajan had his own recording studio and often edited recordings himself. He was interested not only in the quality of sound, but in future recording systems as well. He claimed to prefer the sound of the PCM system over that of analog recordings, which he was more accustomed to. The engineers were extremely happy and felt much encouragement with the approval of Maestro Karajan."

But for professional musicians it's a matter of priorities: they are probably still paying of the (substantial) cost of their instruments to devote much capital to high end audio gear.

 

[stunta]

I’ve heard both (not side by side in the same room). The thing I struggle with is what does it even mean to say what they “sound like”.
Even side by side, changing a setting or two would probably be enough to change a preference for one speaker over the other.

I guess if you had enough time you could iteratively adjust and readjust each speaker until subjectively, they can no longer be improved. Only then would there be a meaningful comparison - sort of

^ This. Most of the time the SxS comparisons are at dealerships and then you are left with this giant variable that is your own room.

FWIW, I just recently added two subs each with dual 8" drivers (Rythmik FM8s) and they measured fine but subjectively just didn't give the dynamics and the chest thumping feel of the kick drum. I switched to using them as mid bass modules with a larger REL sub taking over below 50Hz. The difference is not subtle. Do measurement mics have limitations like room pressure for instance?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Karajan apparently was:

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/2-07.html

"The PCM-1 engineers who had borne the brunt of so much criticism did receive some encouragement. One person who praised the PCM prototype processor as a master recorder for use in studios was the world-renowned Austrian conductor Herbert von Karajan. Maestro Karajan was a longtime friend of Morita. One day in September 1978, when Karajan was visiting the Morita home, Morita asked Nakajima, "Since Mr. Karajan has come here, isn't there something we can play for him?" "Let's play him something on the PCM recorder," replied Nakajima, happily carrying the prototype into the room.

They played a performance of Karajan's that had been secretly recorded during a rehearsal in Salzburg. Rather than scolding them for this unauthorized taping, Karajan was profoundly moved. "This is a new sound," he said. Extremely interested in machines in general and in new recording technology in particular, Karajan had his own recording studio and often edited recordings himself. He was interested not only in the quality of sound, but in future recording systems as well. He claimed to prefer the sound of the PCM system over that of analog recordings, which he was more accustomed to. The engineers were extremely happy and felt much encouragement with the approval of Maestro Karajan."

But for professional musicians it's a matter of priorities: they are probably still paying of the (substantial) cost of their instruments to devote much capital to high end audio gear.

Very interesting, thanks.

I have many friends who are various kinds of musicians. Honestly, I can't think of one instrumental musician who gives audio reproduction much thought, including those who can afford it. These are mostly jazz (and other non-classical genres) musicians in my case. I think they are sometimes concerned that their playback system adequately outputs a wide-ish spectrum - something like: Is there bass? Check. Is there treble? Check.

Composers and producers are a different story IME, they are more often into sound. Perhaps conductors fit into this category more too. It would make sense, in that all these roles require careful consideration of how lots of different sounds fit together.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

At the other end of the musical spectrum, Henry Rollins is an audiophile too

http://blogs.kcrw.com/dna/henry-rollins-and-tom-schnabel-audiophiles-united

 

[Guermantes]

Very interesting, thanks.

I have many friends who are various kinds of musicians. Honestly, I can't think of one instrumental musician who gives audio reproduction much thought, including those who can afford it. These are mostly jazz (and other non-classical genres) musicians in my case. I think they are sometimes concerned that their playback system adequately outputs a wide-ish spectrum - something like: Is there bass? Check. Is there treble? Check.

Composers and producers are a different story IME, they are more often into sound. Perhaps conductors fit into this category more too. It would make sense, in that all these roles require careful consideration of how lots of different sounds fit together.

I think you're spot on. It seems conductors are interested in the whole sound whereas the musicians are focused on their own parts. In a Karajan documentary I watched recently, he stated that the recording was superior to being in the audience at a performance since it represented an ideal in both acoustic perspective and performance (taking in to account editing, retakes, etc.).

 

[Wombat]

Leopold Stokowski was smitten with his Altec A7 Votts. As well as being a conductor and musician he was a member of AES.

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?page_id=8552 For some reason I now get a 403 Error for this link. Maybe others can access it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Leopold Stokowski was smitten with his Altec A7 Votts. As well as being a conductor and musician he was a member of AES.

View attachment 18433

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?page_id=8552 For some reason I now get a 403 Error for this link. Maybe others can access it.

403 no permission to access for me.

 

[Wombat]

Try this: Stokowski Altecs

 

[Sal1950]

Like this?

View attachment 18427

That i'll do it! I've got
Michael Murray - An Organ Blaster Sampler CD80277
That I bought around 1991 to test my new install of a pair of 7' tall Hsu sub's.
The bottom register of that big organ recorded digitally by Telarc can do some serious damage to your plaster if your woofers got the balls. LOL. I had a neighbor on the south side of my property, that when he had his house resided, removed all the windows on the adjoining lot side.

 

[mitchco]

Overlay of the Kii THREE and D&D 8c measured at the LP some nine feet away in my living room. Deets on CA for each. In my crappy room ratio room, I can tune the Kii THREE’s from 21 Hz to 20 kHz ±5dB tolerance and the 8c’s, with more onboard eq, ±3 dB across the same frequency range and bringing interchannel balance closer together.

Can I hear a ±2 dB broadband tolerance difference? Maybe sounds a bit smoother in the low end with the 8c, but “tone wise” they sound incredibly close and beyond 500 Hz, virtually identical.

The big difference for me is another one of those subjective words that I can only guess at the objective measurement. Much like how some speakers sound are more “dynamic” than others or one sounds “larger” than another, what I notice most about the difference between the Kii THREE’s and the 8c’s are that the Kii’s sound “dry” and the 8c’s sound “normal”.

I don’t know how else to put. Whether it is a distortion and/or damping factor difference, or something else, I could not say. The loudspeaker distortion measurements at the LP are virtually identical, but taken with a grain of salt below 500 Hz, as I believe the room is influencing the distortion measurements, let alone knowing what my mic's distortion spec is… However, Bruno’s amps have vanishing low distortion figures with a damping factor of >4000 at all frequencies, seems to be a leading candidate as to the dry sound quality of the Kii THREE… versus the Pascal amps driving the 8c’s.

Which one do I prefer? I am used to the 8c’s “amp” signature, if that is what it is, as compared to the Kii’s. But which is more accurate? Does it matter? Both are fantastic sounding loudspeakers!

 

[Purité Audio]

I don’t think it is the amps, we had the Grimm LS1s they use Hypex and don’t sound ‘dry’ had the Mola-mola iterations with my horns again no different from A/B.
Keith