Kii/8C PSI shootout at Kore Studios

[Soniclife]

Maybe... But all I have is the distortion measurement overlay between both speakers at the LP at 83 dB SPL which is some 9ft away:

View attachment 18348

How much is room, noise floor, and mic, I have no way of separating out. I would need to take near field measurements, and even then, the room will still be a factor at low frequencies and gating the measurement won't help. I also require a different measurement mic as their only seems to be a handful on the market that actually gives a distortion spec on the mic itself...

Also, I don't think the distortion accounts for the "size" difference. Re: tapping fingers on the cone is a dead giveaway, like I say the difference is akin to tapping on a small diameter drum (like a small tom tom) versus a floor tom or kick drum. With a couple of taps, one can identify which one "sounds" bigger...

I'm not sure tapping the driver means much, is one metal and the other paper?

Your chart shows much higher distortion for the 8c from it's midrange driver than I was expecting, enough to be audible. Maybe this is a cardioid penalty, with some of its output being cancelled it has to work harder for the same SPL.

I think measuring this at the LP makes sense.

Interesting stuff.

Wonder what the BXT does to the Kii in this area.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Also, I don't think the distortion accounts for the "size" difference. Re: tapping fingers on the cone is a dead giveaway, like I say the difference is akin to tapping on a small diameter drum (like a small tom tom) versus a floor tom or kick drum. With a couple of taps, one can identify which one "sounds" bigger...

This is the only aspect of what you say that I'm sceptical of.

Firstly (and this doesn't contradict what you're saying), the difference will be attributable to the woofer and box as a whole, not just the cone. And you'll be hearing the fundamental (resonance/s) + harmonics and other tones, just as you would when tapping a drum.

Secondly (and I think this does contradict you), I don't see what direct effect this could have on the sound that doesn't show up in measurements.

 

[Purité Audio]

Is the sound the driver makes when tapped relevant, surely that will depend upon the material the cone is made from the resonant frequency of the cone and the differences in the internal volume of the enclosures?
I have horns with two large paper cone bass drivers, drums have more attack and punch through the 8Cs I presume that is because of the D&Ds bass/boundary coupling ?
You two got there before me,
Keith

 

[andreasmaaan]

Your chart shows much higher distortion for the 8c from it's midrange driver than I was expecting, enough to be audible. Maybe this is a cardioid penalty, with some of its output being cancelled it has to work harder for the same SPL.

Wish I could recall where, but the anechoic measurements of the 8C done in a lab for a review that was posted on ASR showed significantly lower distortion than Mitch is getting in his living room. Assuming identical measurement conditions though, it's probably fair to deduce from those two traces that the JBL's level of distortion is lower (also given what we know about the drivers and boxes). But I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the two speakers' absolute levels of distortion.

 

[dc655321]

@mitchco - the 100-1500 [Hz] distortion measurements look fairly typical for a mid-sized cone at typical SPL levels. i.e. neither poor nor great.
The fact that there is a discrepancy of distortion between (dual?) 15" and 8" drivers at the same SPL is also to be expected - the 8" has to be driven harder to achieve the same SPL as the 15".

Has anyone heard of any documented listening (blind) tests comparing larger vs smaller speakers?
i.e. something like having mitcho's JBL system and the 8c behind a curtain, SPL matched, and play "point at the larger speaker, please".

I hear the "sounds like small drivers" mantra spouted prolifically here and elsewhere. Is there any science to back that up?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I can relate to hearing music "in the head" but of course this can only be applicable to music one knows, either by listening live or reading the score. I find listening to classical music in the car singularly disappointing since the dynamic range means the quiet bits are drowned by the car noise, however if I know the piece well I -do- "hear" in my head the bits I can't actually hear in reality because they are drowned. This doesn't work if I am not familiar with the piece then it just sounds rubbish.

 

[mitchco]

This is the only aspect of what you say that I'm sceptical of.

Firstly (and this doesn't contradict what you're saying), the difference will be attributable to the woofer and box as a whole, not just the cone. And you'll be hearing the fundamental (resonance/s) + harmonics and other tones, just as you would when tapping a drum.

Secondly (and I think this does contradict you), I don't see what direct effect this could have on the sound that doesn't show up in measurements.

I am sceptical too! But anecdotally, whenever speakers come through my room, I can get an idea of "how big" they sound by simply tapping on the woofer/mid range cone and compare to my reference.. Completely unscientific for sure. But it is pretty easy to hear the cabinet sounding like the size of a milk carton versus a large enclosure. For sure, I get F3 and no I am not talking about cone materials at all...

Hence my question, how to measure how and why one speaker "sounds" bigger than another... As far as I know, I have not been able to find any science or DBT's around this...

 

[andreasmaaan]

I am sceptical too! But anecdotally, whenever speakers come through my room, I can get an idea of "how big" they sound by simply tapping on the woofer/mid range cone and compare to my reference.. Completely unscientific for sure. But it is pretty easy to hear the cabinet sounding like the size of a milk carton versus a large enclosure. For sure, I get F3 and no I am not talking about cone materials at all...

Hence my question, how to measure how and why one speaker "sounds" bigger than another... As far as I know, I have not been able to find any science or DBT's around this...

Well to be fair, we don't even have any scientific evidence that bigger speakers do "sound bigger" than smaller speakers in the first place

(...once visual cues are removed of course...)

 

[Soniclife]

Do you have the waterfall plots of the two systems?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Well to be fair, we don't even have any scientific evidence that bigger speakers do "sound bigger" than smaller speakers in the first place

(...once visual cues are removed of course...)

This is highly unsatisfying because size is the one factor that I seem to notice...when doing sighted tests...

FWIW, I do believe size matters (my iMac has pretty good sound, but it sounds small) but would be happy to see some theories and tests about this.

 

[andreasmaaan]

This is highly unsatisfying because size is the one factor that I seem to notice...when doing sighted tests...

FWIW, I do believe size matters (my iMac has pretty good sound, but it sounds small) but would be happy to see some theories and tests about this.

Me too!

In terms of theories, I think I've given a few ad hoc ones in other threads.

Basically, I think it comes down to tendencies of larger speakers to:

• produce lower distortion at higher SPLs in the bass and lower midrange
• have narrower directivity in the midrange
• block out more early reflections from the front wall (depending on positioning)

Speakers like the Kii and D&D take care of the latter two points, but smaller drivers can only go so far when it comes to the first point.

Would still love to see whether the difference really is audible after visual cues are removed...

 

[hvbias]

Theres folks that want great sounding speakers and there’s folks that want a no compromise system where domestic restrictions don’t apply . There’s absolutely no need to pretend the latter can be obtained by two stand mounted speakers, they are two diffrent solutions for very diffrent situational requirements.

Smashing out a 16hz tone at 100db would get me arrested where I live , I’m sure @soundArgument neighbours would not be impressed either and nor would multi subs and big fugly speakers be acceptable for his domestic requirements.

Diffrent products and approaches to suit diffrent customer priorities, I just don’t understand why people have to make these 2 very different things adversarial and start making claims of performance parity. The great engineering in the 8c gets you very close and is all ‘most’ would ever want or need. Why can’t we just celebrate that for what it is.

Thomas you are bang on. I want a set of speakers for my living room and that room is going to be seen by everyone. So they need to look good and I want high fidelity. Having music playing in good quality in a room surrounded by family is plain awesome compared to disappearing into a man cave and being hermit. So that's why stuff like D&D or Vivid Giya are at the top of my list, would use my own DSP with the latter. This is why I went with Harbeths currently, they're good looking speakers and they sound very good. Of course we can now do a whole hell of a lot better.

On the other hand I do want that experience of no compromise which is why I'm building the other system I've discussed in my big K-402 thread. One where I won't feel guilty listening to it after hours when others aren't hanging around.

I think these are amazing times; setup a NAS somewhere, configure a few doohickeys and have whole house, lossless audio with speakers that measure like nothing else of the past several decades.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Me too!

In terms of theories, I think I've given a few ad hoc ones in other threads.

Basically, I think it comes down to tendencies of larger speakers to:

• produce lower distortion at higher SPLs in the bass and lower midrange
• have narrower directivity in the midrange
• block out more early reflections from the front wall (depending on positioning)

Speakers like the Kii and D&D take care of the latter two points, but smaller drivers can only go so far when it comes to the first point.

Would still love to see whether the difference really is audible after visual cues are removed...

Larger drivers, larger baffles as well. There’s a huge literature on baffles, I presume.

So maybe larger speakers leave us baffled?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Larger drivers, larger baffles as well. There’s a huge literature on baffles, I presume.

So maybe larger speakers leave us baffled?

Haha. There's a lot on how baffle dimensions and shape affect polar response / so-called baffle step, and also the audibility of baffle-related diffraction.

However, I'm not aware of any work on the audibility of any secondary effects of baffle size (as distinct from polar response).

 

[FrantzM]

The measurement mic I have is not good for measuring distortion. The 8c can go quite loud, but my comments aren't about SPL...

When I record my snare drum and listen back on dual 15" the tone sounds a lot more like a snare drum then it does coming through an 8" driver in a small cabinet... regardless of SPL. The weight or thickness of the snare drum is around 160 Hz, so it's not the subs I am talking about either...

I have observed the same re: Small speakers even with subs sounding like "small" speakers. Not that they are not sounding good.. No! There is lack of realism on certain material. This is not to be dismissed as a bias. I believe it should be approached with caution and an open mind. There is something about the better large speakers .. it not just the bass it is much more. For those who have for example expereinced the Dunleavy designs .. There is a rightness/weigh to their mid bass reproduction .. The Duntech series (Sovereign, Black Knight, eve the Princess) , the Dunleavy series (III, IV, V, VI) had a "rightnes"s to their midbass reproduction few speakers have matched since ... It is not the low bass that is at issue it is more ...

 

[Thomas savage]

Thomas you are bang on. I want a set of speakers for my living room and that room is going to be seen by everyone. So they need to look good and I want high fidelity. Having music playing in good quality in a room surrounded by family is plain awesome compared to disappearing into a man cave and being hermit. So that's why stuff like D&D or Vivid Giya are at the top of my list, would use my own DSP with the latter. This is why I went with Harbeths currently, they're good looking speakers and they sound very good. Of course we can now do a whole hell of a lot better.

On the other hand I do want that experience of no compromise which is why I'm building the other system I've discussed in my big K-402 thread. One where I won't feel guilty listening to it after hours when others aren't hanging around.

I think these are amazing times; setup a NAS somewhere, configure a few doohickeys and have whole house, lossless audio with speakers that measure like nothing else of the past several decades.

I’m just negotiating a deal for a trinnov st2 to go into combination with my G3’s and two Rel subs , something to play with over the winter. I tried to convince dic to make a active DSP’d giya ( he had absolutely no obligation to listen to me of course lol) ,, they do now offer them with external networks so in theory you could talk with them and build a active one yourself I believe without much difficulty .

The all in one convenience of the 8C ,it’s performance through the frequency range and foot print to me make it a perfect contender for a sociable domestic space but that’s on paper as Iv not heard them yet. There’s quite some price difference if your considering them against the giya , ime all dicks speakers sound fantastic and I struggle to really enjoy any other designs but they are a boutique manufacturer with all the associated issues that can bring. I think they’ve changed North American distributors, just as well as the last one was hopeless beyond being a press donkey .

 

[hvbias]

FWIW and this is another sighted response:

I have been trying JBL LSR306 in my living room, I cross them over to dual Rythmik sealed servo subs. My other speakers are much larger Harbeth Super HL5. Same 75 Hz crossover on both.

While the JBL are objectively higher fidelity the Harbeths still do the "scale" thing better with concerto or symphony music. Even piano music that is appropriately mic'd like the live recording of Andrea Lucchesini playing the Beethoven piano sonatas (image from my avatar) sounds "bigger" on the Harbeths.

Now I am well aware that I am just some numpty that is not immune to bias, so take that for what it is worth Post #119 links to a thread I started wondering this same thing about "big speakers". I fully accept that what I'm hearing between the JBL and Harbeth could be some form of bias, what I heard on the big horn system though I can say with some confidence I have never heard that kind of scale with symphony music on speakers.

 

[hvbias]

I’m just negotiating a deal for a trinnov st2 to go into combination with my G3’s and two Rel subs , something to play with over the winter. I tried to convince dick to make a active DSP’d giya ( he had absolutely no obligation to listen to me of course lol) ,, they do offer them with external networks so in theory you could talk with them and build a active one yourself I believe without much difficulty .

The all in one convenience of the 8C ,it’s performance through the frequency range and foot print to me make it a perfect contender for a sociable domestic space but that’s on paper as Iv not heard them yet. There’s quite some price difference if your considering them against the giya , ime all dicks speakers sound fantastic and I struggle to really enjoy any other designs but they are a boutique manufacturer with all the associated issues that can bring. I think they’ve changed North American distributors, just as well as the last one was hopeless beyond being a press donkey .

I've heard the Giyas a couple of times at shows, what I hear is accurate to what their measurements show. When asking them to play things like solo piano or violin where with some experience you know the frequency response of the instrument and recording. I certainly like them and I think they are the best looking speakers I have ever seen.

I think Lawrence Dickie is a very clever designer who is designing objectively excellent speakers but not shouting it at the top of his lungs, there is an under stated elegance in that he knows his speakers are good but he doesn't need to be very vocal about it. Maybe some of that is to also cater to your traditional audiophile that start to get skeptical if too much about measurements, design, etc is brought up.

Now on the flip side I also like the idea of getting that absolute perfection with DSP crossovers. This is why I have been really hoping Vivid do something like this. It is fairly obvious they are designing these crossovers digitally and then building them passively.

 

[Thomas savage]

I've heard the Giyas a couple of times at shows, what I hear is accurate to what their measurements show. When asking them to play things like solo piano or violin where with some experience you know the frequency response of the instrument and recording. I certainly like them and I think they are the best looking speakers I have ever seen.

I think Lawrence Dickie is a very clever designer who is designing objectively excellent speakers but not shouting it at the top of his lungs, there is an under stated elegance in that he knows his speakers are good but he doesn't need to be very vocal about it. Maybe some of that is to also cater to your traditional audiophile that start to get skeptical if too much about measurements, design, etc is brought up.

Now on the flip side I also like the idea of getting that absolute perfection with DSP crossovers. This is why I have been really hoping Vivid do something like this. It is fairly obvious they are designing these crossovers digitally and then building them passively.

Agreed, dic seems to be inspired by a combination of , or better described maybe as the meeting of science and nature with his very organic enclosures pairing so seamlessly with the very mechanical pistonic excellence of his drivers . If you want to build a active xover dsp type giya do email him as you you find a very intresting and indeed interested person. The crossovers are CAD designed I believe and as far as I know dic feels they are transparent. Anyway as they have taken or give the option to take the crossover out of the speaker customers are free to make a active version easily, this is probably the best solution for everyone who wants a active giya.

On the sound front the scale of sound from the Giya is awe inspiring ( when recording presents the material) , huge scale , accurate tone and no obvious signs it’s emanating from a few drivers in a box. Hard to beat imo and they will get guests talking too, inject a little fun into your living room by the pure look of them.

Get a pair in at home , maybe organise a dual demo so you can have the 8C in the house side by side, I’d be interested in reading your thoughts on the comparison.

 

[Sal1950]

Having music playing in good quality in a room surrounded by family is plain awesome compared to disappearing into a man cave and being hermit.

Maybe it's just the cheapskate in me but I can't see the sense in spending the kind of money we're talking about here on a room used to socialize with family at the same time. Since it sounded like you have the space for a second "top shelf" system, why not just put something very conservative in the family room and put the money saved in the SOTA room/system.