Kii/8C PSI shootout at Kore Studios

[Sal1950]

I have observed the same re: Small speakers even with subs sounding like "small" speakers. Not that they are not sounding good.. No! There is lack of realism on certain material.

Absolutely. No amount of woofing tacked on a small speaker is ever going to give it qualities associated with large horns, panels, and maybe large multi tweeter/midrange driver midranges. Their ability to move large amounts of air with speed and low distortion bring a "live" sound that I've not seen equaled otherwise.

 

[Thomas savage]

Absolutely. No amount of woofing tacked on a small speaker is ever going to give it qualities associated with large horns, panels, and maybe large multi tweeter/midrange driver midranges. Their ability to move large amounts of air with speed and low distortion bring a "live" sound that I've not seen equaled otherwise.

Be intresting to know if that came up in the spinorama Harman test’s or wether it might be a bias enforced by the visual .

I don’t think we have come to a consensus on a measurement that reflects this phenomenon.

 

[restorer-john]

Bose used to put their small speakers inside empty big speakers at their audio show demos. Remember the pull back the curtain trick? People would expect the big sound to come from big speakers and it shocked them when they opened the front of the big speaker to show whatever tiny thing they were peddling. Lots of ooohs and aaaahs I recall.

 

[Thomas savage]

Bose used to put their small speakers inside empty big speakers at their audio show demos. Remember the pull back the curtain trick? People would expect the big sound to come from big speakers and it shocked them when they opened the front of the big speaker to show whatever tiny thing they were peddling. Lots of ooohs and aaaahs I recall.

Yea, that’s kinda positive or active reinforcement though I wonder if it works the other way round. We would have to hide a big speaker in a small speaker,,,, answers on a post card lol

 

[Sal1950]

I don’t think we have come to a consensus on a measurement that reflects this phenomenon.

Basic engineering would tell us that anything we can do to reduce the stress induced to driver X will allow it to operate closer to its intended goal. Reducing the flex and distortion of a drivers cone at X spl has to net improvements somewhere

 

[restorer-john]

....We would have to hide a big speaker in a small speaker...

I'm sure you could charm the Tardis off that new Doctor for that little party trick.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm sure you could charm the Tardis off that new Doctor for that little party trick.

Oh lord, what a disaster she and that snowflake Chris Chibnall has brought to what was once an icon.
Sadly no way it takes it thru a second season unless major changes are made in the lineup

 

[restorer-john]

I’m just negotiating a deal for a trinnov st2 to go into combination with my G3’s and two Rel subs , something to play with over the winter.

That looks like a very interesting device.

 

[Purité Audio]

Thomas have you heard the Kayas are they similar to the Giya would you say?
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Agreed, dic seems to be inspired by a combination of , or better described maybe as the meeting of science and nature with his very organic enclosures pairing so seamlessly with the very mechanical pistonic excellence of his drivers . If you want to build a active xover dsp type giya do email him as you you find a very intresting and indeed interested person. The crossovers are CAD designed I believe and as far as I know dic feels they are transparent. Anyway as they have taken or give the option to take the crossover out of the speaker customers are free to make a active version easily, this is probably the best solution for everyone who wants a active giya.

On the sound front the scale of sound from the Giya is awe inspiring ( when recording presents the material) , huge scale , accurate tone and no obvious signs it’s emanating from a few drivers in a box. Hard to beat imo and they will get guests talking too, inject a little fun into your living room by the pure look of them.

Get a pair in at home , maybe organise a dual demo so you can have the 8C in the house side by side, I’d be interested in reading your thoughts on the comparison.

The Giyas must be a totally different speaker from the Kayas.
Keith

 

[Cosmik]

Larger drivers, larger baffles as well. There’s a huge literature on baffles, I presume.

So maybe larger speakers leave us baffled?

I don't see it as very mysterious..? I think it's fairly well established.

If the room sound doesn't correspond to the direct sound, the illusion is ruined. Non-uniform dispersion against frequency is a major discrepancy between direct sound and room sound.

A wider baffle automatically helps to make the dispersion more uniform because it lowers the frequency at which the baffle is effectively preventing the wavefronts from the drivers from 'going round the back' of the speaker and instead keeps them projecting forwards.

Mr. Grimm goes into it in great detail when talking about his LS1 (a 'small' speaker with a wide baffle):
https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf

Mr. Putzeys talks about how his active cardioid cancellation system creates the effect of a wide baflle
https://www.kiiaudio.com/acoustics.php

Mr. R.E. Greene talks about his exasperation over the fashion for narrow-fronted speakers here:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio in Modern Times.pdf

Now look at the second graph. This is a “minimonitor” which is quite flat and also well behaved off axis to the extent that that is possible with this type of design. It is essentially omni in the lower frequencies and then steps down in room response at around 800 Hz. This speaker cannot be easily nor unambiguously corrected to sound neutral because the room sound is too prominent and not uniform. If the direct arrival is made flat, then the speaker will sound midrange-oriented. But if the midrange is pulled down very far, then the direct sound will be thin and hard/bright sounding.

Finally, we have the third graph. This is again a box speaker, like the second example, but this is a box with a wide (18”) cabinet. As a result of the wide cabinet, the speaker starts to direct its radiation forward at around 300 Hz, instead of the 800 Hz of the minimonitor. The "baffle step" from omni to essentially forward is more than an octave lower.... a speaker like that... can in fact be made neutral-sounding.

What is true of the mini-monitor, that it cannot be EQed to sound right, is also true of narrow-front floor-standers. They sound too midrange-oriented because of the nature of the room sound. This is something about the geometry of the design. It cannot be substantially altered by crossover decisions and so on. How then can it be that narrowfront speakers are nearly ubiquitous? How did audio wander off into what amounts to a blind alley?

And the 8c uses special holes in the box to help keep the dispersion more uniform using passive acoustic means.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I don't see it as very mysterious..? I think it's fairly well established.

If the room sound doesn't correspond to the direct sound, the illusion is ruined. Non-uniform dispersion against frequency is a major discrepancy between direct sound and room sound.

A wider baffle automatically helps to make the dispersion more uniform because it lowers the frequency at which the baffle is effectively preventing the wavefronts from the drivers from 'going round the back' of the speaker and instead keeps them projecting forwards.

Mr. Grimm goes into it in great detail when talking about his LS1 (a 'small' speaker with a wide baffle):
https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf

Mr. Putzeys talks about how his active cardioid cancellation system creates the effect of a wide baflle
https://www.kiiaudio.com/acoustics.php

Mr. R.E. Greene talks about his exasperation over the fashion for narrow-fronted speakers here:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio in Modern Times.pdf


And the 8c uses special holes in the box to help keep the dispersion more uniform using passive acoustic means.

You wrote:

«If the room sound doesn't correspond to the direct sound, the illusion is ruined».

And yet you praise speakers of multiple drivers separated widely apart that radiate differently off and on axis? I don’t get that.

 

[Cosmik]

You wrote:

«If the room sound doesn't correspond to the direct sound, the illusion is ruined».

And yet you praise speakers of multiple drivers separated widely apart that radiate differently off and on axis? I don’t get that.

Do I praise them if they are widely separated? In my speakers I keep them as close together as possible to try to create a single unified driver.

Each driver has its own dispersion angle that decreases with frequency based on its diameter. By using multiple drivers (e.g. three), it is possible to cross over to the next smaller one before it becomes very 'beamy', thus preventing abrupt changes between the drivers. Coupled with a wide baffle (like the LS1), this can keep the dispersion angle within reasonable limits down to low frequencies. Not perfect, but reasonably controlled..?

 

[Thomas savage]

Thomas have you heard the Kayas are they similar to the Giya would you say?
Keith

Well they are about half the price lol

Iv not heard them and tbh I’m not that interested in the direction they have taken with them, I can’t quite believe they are £14k. I don’t see the point of them. If you want to ask someone how say the kii compares to the giya ask Bruno as I believe he used his G3 as a reference when doing the R&D for his speaker.

My suggestion a few years back was to combine dic’s physical engineering abilities with advancement on the software side and create a ultimate integrated speaker system that could utilise discrete subs positioned about your room wirelessly combined with 2 mains . Imo the software dsp amp in a ordinary box with average drivers combo while bridging the gap still leaves a bit on the table . If Bruno and dic combined forces the result would be exciting, but no dice ha ha.

Let’s see some in room measurements of the kii 8c and that vivid ? Don’t be shy (we need data as as you know dic is a bit of a darling to the hifi press and world in general so you can’t exapect any reliable appraisals from that world, they will all Lord them up. )

 

[Dialectic]

I have no opinion on the Vivid speakers, but kaya toast may be the most delicious thing in the universe.

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm sure you could charm the Tardis off that new Doctor for that little party trick.

View attachment 18360

She’s actually great but the shows been hijacked by some leftist liberal agenda and reduced to ashes unfortunately.

 

[Soniclife]

Would still love to see whether the difference really is audible after visual cues are removed...

I have been trying to think of what blind speaker tests I have seen reported, there are not many. I remember someone here reported about a test at Harman of 708, 708 & M2, and saying it was shocking how close they were, but I don't remember if that was sighted or blind. The only other blind testing I remember was done in HiFi Choice for a long time, they would use a panel to review a random selection of speakers behind a curtain, my memory is that size, price and design were all over the place in many groups, so the panel would not know what type of thing they were hearing. The main reviewer would regularly make the point that small 2 ways were often the best sounding, but that's overall and not just on 'what sounds big'. Most of these reviews were pre-internet but this is a snippet from one i've found, no idea what else was in the group.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/acoustic-energy-ae1-mkiii--pound;2000/10216/

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have been trying to think of what blind speaker tests I have seen reported, there are not many. I remember someone here reported about a test at Harman of 708, 708 & M2, and saying it was shocking how close they were, but I don't remember if that was sighted or blind. The only other blind testing I remember was done in HiFi Choice for a long time, they would use a panel to review a random selection of speakers behind a curtain, my memory is that size, price and design were all over the place in many groups, so the panel would not know what type of thing they were hearing. The main reviewer would regularly make the point that small 2 ways were often the best sounding, but that's overall and not just on 'what sounds big'. Most of these reviews were pre-internet but this is a snippet from one i've found, no idea what else was in the group.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/acoustic-energy-ae1-mkiii--pound;2000/10216/

Interesting! By 708, do you mean the RCF speakers?

 

[restorer-john]

...but the shows been hijacked by some leftist liberal agenda and reduced to ashes unfortunately...

Sounds just like our ABC over here. A mess of what was once an excellent national broadcaster. Incidentally, I ditched our ABC news for the BBC world news for a while until I realised it was no better.

 

[Soniclife]

Interesting! By 708, do you mean the RCF speakers?

I meant the jbl 705p and 8, if my memory is right.