Kali LP-6/LP-8 V2 (2nd Wave) studio monitors released

[David_M]

As accurately measured by Erin's Klippel:

I know. The above plot was measured on-axis, but in stereo on-axis listening is not possible, unless you are listening to one speaker or two right next to each other.

 

[David_M]

The room is under control below the transition zone. There is no low bass on my Neumann KH120s either, because of the way they are set up in my room. A sub was needed to “fix” this giant hole.

Yeah, that's what I have right now as my sub is set for a 120Hz xover @24dB/Octave slope... At this level, I can hear male voices in my sub channel, which I wanted to avoid. Lowering the xover produces strange audible "holes" in the frequency response, as shown in my original graphs.

 

[David_M]

Relax. Its called Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) and its talked about in several thread of the forum. It is a function of your room and where you place your speakers. All speakers are subject to it, except those like Dutch and Dutch 8C which are designed to cancel the low frequency reflections coming from the front wall.

You will need to experiment with placement and possibly room treatments to fix it. Subs also help mask it with careful integration and EQ. This is a very big topic and I am far from the expert. I've just been dealing with it lately in my own systems.

Thanks!

The small monitors are in a relatively big room. As I said before, they are on my big computer desk, 8.5-ft from the back wall and 7-ft on the side for my left speaker, whose frequency response graph I plotted earlier. The thin LG TV is recessed 6 inches behind the monitors but is situated between the speakers, so I see no interaction between the TV screen and the monitors.

I used to have Martin-Logan xstats (Spires) a few years back, and they measured quite well on and off axis in my much larger and busier room. I think the FR of speakers should be measured at typical listening distances and inter-speaker width, at least as suggested by the manufacturer, if possible, and not in idealistic cases, as CEA dictates. Just my 2 cents!

 

[Longshan]

Damn, this is criminal!!! How come no one in this forum mentioned this before? I presume many bought this speaker based on reviews here and on Erin's site?

So, we don't have a speaker with an extension of 40Hz, but 150Hz in real life. I feel very deceived. I've just contacted Kali Audio and am waiting for their response, but I wonder what they say to justify this behavior.

I don't really agree with your interpretation though. There's nothing wrong with the monitors, and mine sound fantastic.

 

[LightninBoy]

Thanks!

The small monitors are in a relatively big room. As I said before, they are on my big computer desk, 8.5-ft from the back wall and 7-ft on the side for my left speaker, whose frequency response graph I plotted earlier. The thin LG TV is recessed 6 inches behind the monitors but is situated between the speakers, so I see no interaction between the TV screen and the monitors.

Its the interaction between speaker and *front wall* that is usually problematic for SBIR. What is that distance? And to be clear, by front wall I mean the wall behind the speakers. Measure from the front of the speaker to the wall please.

I used to have Martin-Logan xstats (Spires) a few years back, and they measured quite well on and off axis in my much larger and busier room. I think the FR of speakers should be measured at typical listening distances and inter-speaker width, at least as suggested by the manufacturer, if possible, and not in idealistic cases, as CEA dictates. Just my 2 cents!

The issue you are seeing is not due to being off axis - and BTW, you can point the speakers at the listening position to get back "on axis". But that won't help here. Its because you have moved the mic away from the speaker and the room is now impacting the frequency response.

I'm not sure you are fully appreciating the impact the room and speaker placement has at these lower frequencies. It is huge. Reviewers measuring at a "typical listening distance" would not help because the result would only be for that specific room and that specific speaker location.

 

[ernestcarl]

Yeah, that's what I have right now as my sub is set for a 120Hz xover @24dB/Octave slope... At this level, I can hear male voices in my sub channel, which I wanted to avoid. Lowering the xover produces strange audible "holes" in the frequency response, as shown in my original graphs.

You might want to play around with the delay settings as well, if you have that capability.

Getting an optimal mains+sub integration is not necessarily going to be easy. There is more than one of doing it, of course... and many ways of doing it suboptimally -- you've got to find a way to work with the room.

I also personally like to look at the phase responses overlayed together with the magnitude traces to get it perfectly time and phase aligned as much as possible for maximum summation. I use REW's alignment tool and RTA PN generator...

Frequency Dependent Window (FDW) 15 cycles

*trace #22 Sub only - no EQ 12dB/oct 120 LPF (internal to the sub and cannot be disabled)
**very little bass coming out of my studio monitors as measured at the MLP!

At least with my own desk setup and sub integration, I am not experiencing any obvious localization revealing the separate presence of the subwoofer itself; it all sounds like one cohesive whole.

 

[LightninBoy]

Yeah, that's what I have right now as my sub is set for a 120Hz xover @24dB/Octave slope... At this level, I can hear male voices in my sub channel, which I wanted to avoid. Lowering the xover produces strange audible "holes" in the frequency response, as shown in my original graphs.

Ahh, good you have a sub. I recommend experimenting with speaker positioning (specifically distance from front wall) to push the SBIR effect as low as possible. Then integrate the sub as best you can.

Search the forum here for other ideas. Here's a really long thread with links to other resources ...

Speakers against front wall - can this be settled?

Apologies if this has been summarized already on ASR but I could not find it. Based on this image from Genelec, shouldn't all full-range speakers be near to the front wall? I have heard the advice that for best stereo image the speakers should be away from the front wall. Is this "away from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[David_M]

Its the interaction between speaker and *front wall* that is usually problematic for SBIR. What is that distance? And to be clear, by front wall I mean the wall behind the speakers. Measure from the front of the speaker to the wall please.

The issue you are seeing is not due to being off axis - and BTW, you can point the speakers at the listening position to get back "on axis". But that won't help here. Its because you have moved the mic away from the speaker and the room is now impacting the frequency response.

I'm not sure you are fully appreciating the impact the room and speaker placement has at these lower frequencies. It is huge. Reviewers measuring at a "typical listening distance" would not help because the result would only be for that specific room and that specific speaker location.

Thanks LB ... I appreciate your well reasoned and informative answers. This is my first foray into monitors, active or otherwise. I've always been a regular speaker size person.

Distance from front of speaker to back wall(faced at the rear of the speaker) = 9.34-ft (per my laser distance meter).



Distance from front of speaker to true front wall (my true back wall) = 5.92-ft .

What is the predominant mode frequency at this distance?

 

[David_M]

Ahh, good you have a sub. I recommend experimenting with speaker positioning (specifically distance from front wall) to push the SBIR effect as low as possible. Then integrate the sub as best you can.

Search the forum here for other ideas. Here's a really long thread with links to other resources ...

Speakers against front wall - can this be settled?

Apologies if this has been summarized already on ASR but I could not find it. Based on this image from Genelec, shouldn't all full-range speakers be near to the front wall? I have heard the advice that for best stereo image the speakers should be away from the front wall. Is this "away from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately, the speakers are at the edge of my 3 ft deep desk. There's no more distance for me to move them. Thanks for the links!

 

[David_M]

You might want to play around with the delay settings as well, if you have that capability.

Getting an optimal mains+sub integration is not necessarily going to be easy. There is more than one of doing it, of course... and many ways of doing it suboptimally -- you've got to find a way to work with the room.

I also personally like to look at the phase responses overlayed together with the magnitude traces to get it perfectly time and phase aligned as much as possible for maximum summation. I use REW's alignment tool and RTA PN generator...

Frequency Dependent Window (FDW) 15 cycles
View attachment 191034
*trace #22 Sub only - no EQ 12dB/oct 120 LPF (internal to the sub and cannot be disabled)
**very little bass coming out of my studio monitors as measured at the MLP!

At least with my own desk setup and sub integration, I am not experiencing any obvious localization revealing the separate presence of the subwoofer itself; it all sounds like one cohesive whole.

Wow, ok. Thank you for this. Very detailed and informative. Was this your response for the Kali's LP6v2 or other monitors?

Mea Culpa ... My sincerest apologies for my original inflammatory (and uninformed!) post about these monitors being deficient. I was panicking but the good and well-informed posters here have set me straight. I see that monitors are a different beast from regular mains. SBIR is a new concept to me, and the little I've read tells me what a problem it can be in home and studio setups.

My new SVS SB-4000 can adjust for phase angle. Is that the same as (or equivalent to) a time delay?

 

[ernestcarl]

Wow, ok. Thank you for this. Very detailed and informative. Was this your response for the Kali's LP6v2 or other monitors?

No need to apologize or anything.

Monitors are KH120s, but the room is acoustically treated -- including the ceiling and desk itself.

I don't know if the SVS phase adjustment acts like an all-pass filter (same as my Rythmik F12's phase knob) or a pure digital time delay. The former alters the phase response increasing GD in the lower frequencies, while the latter does not. Either could be used just as well, but I'd say digital pure time delay filters are much more preferable. What you get from a real audio interface with DSP is the ability to make more fine grain adjustments -- some have more capabilities than others e.g. external device processors or software that can do FIR filtering, for example.

 

[David_M]

Ahh, good you have a sub. I recommend experimenting with speaker positioning (specifically distance from front wall) to push the SBIR effect as low as possible. Then integrate the sub as best you can.

Search the forum here for other ideas. Here's a really long thread with links to other resources ...

Speakers against front wall - can this be settled?

Apologies if this has been summarized already on ASR but I could not find it. Based on this image from Genelec, shouldn't all full-range speakers be near to the front wall? I have heard the advice that for best stereo image the speakers should be away from the front wall. Is this "away from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And this says it all based off that link above... I'm deep in the red zone. Can't move the wall closer to speakers and can't move speakers further back as they are right on the very edge of my 5ft deep desk. Oh well!

 

[LightninBoy]

Thanks LB ... I appreciate your well reasoned and informative answers. This is my first foray into monitors, active or otherwise. I've always been a regular speaker size person.

Distance from front of speaker to back wall(faced at the rear of the speaker) = 9.34-ft (per my laser distance meter).



Distance from front of speaker to true front wall (my true back wall) = 5.92-ft .

What is the predominant mode frequency at this distance?

Hmmm, I would think those distances would push the problem frequencies low enough for the sub to fix, but apparently not. If you can move your desk, you could enter your room dimensions in the REW room simulator to see your room modes and potentially find a better spot. Otherwise, your tools are sub integration, room treatments, and EQ.

 

[David_M]

Hmmm, I would think those distances would push the problem frequencies low enough for the sub to fix, but apparently not. If you can move your desk, you could enter your room dimensions in the REW room simulator to see your room modes and potentially find a better spot. Otherwise, your tools are sub-integration, room treatments, and EQ.

As per the chart above your post, my distance is 2.84 meters, well into the red zone that messes up frequencies from 150Hz and lower. Like I said earlier, I set my sub to 120Hz, which clears up the mess, but I hear male voices from both my subs and LP6 monitors.

My L-shaped desk alone, weighing 100+ pounds, and then adding a pile of heavy, almost-to-the-ceiling school textbooks, is not a move I cherish to make. BTW, this is all in my bedroom. The house I live in is shared with two other grad students. No living room. Just 3 bedrooms, a small bathroom and kitchen. I'll have to deal with my audio issues in other ways.

 

[egeesman]

I'm surprised I'm not hearing more about issues with people's monitors. Kali is sending me new amps with 'updated firmware' but the problem has gotten worse, with audible distortion on audio that isn't even bassy. I would assume that a problem that is firmware specific would not be changing and getting worse...

 

[Longshan]

I'm surprised I'm not hearing more about issues with people's monitors. Kali is sending me new amps with 'updated firmware' but the problem has gotten worse, with audible distortion on audio that isn't even bassy. I would assume that a problem that is firmware specific would not be changing and getting worse...

Mine have been bullet-proof. Sorry to hear you're having trouble with them.

 

[David_M]

Final system response from REW of my 2.1 Kali LP6v2 audio system with and without treble boost at the listening position. SB4000 sub volume = - 10dB. Best I can do for now without software or hardware based EQ.

 

[ernestcarl]

Final system response from REW of my 2.1 Kali LP6v2 audio system with and without treble boost at the listening position. SB4000 sub volume = - 10dB. Best I can do for now without software or hardware based EQ.

View attachment 191646

Why is your mids slope so unusually steep and HF that wonky? Is this well off-axis? cause this does not look all that normal. And although it isn’t shown here explicitly, you might want to examine the effect of your chosen individual xo filtering at the MLP — so not only going by the theoretical best settings or mere trial and error — by looking at a detailed overlay of your sub and mains magnitude and phase response e.g. via REW’s ‘alignment tool’.

*I know you don’t have DSP capability right now, but it is already possible to simulate what an optimal xo might look like just from the raw unfiltered response of your mains and sub at the MLP.

 

[David_M]

Why is your mids slope so unusually steep and HF that wonky? Is this well off-axis? cause this does not look all that normal. And although it isn’t shown here explicitly, you might want to examine the effect of your chosen individual xo filtering at the MLP — so not only going by the theoretical best settings or mere trial and error — by looking at a detailed overlay of your sub and mains magnitude and phase response e.g. via REW’s ‘alignment tool’.

*I know you don’t have DSP capability right now, but it is already possible to simulate what an optimal xo might look like just from the raw unfiltered response of your mains and sub at the MLP.

I'm not sure what else to do about the steep slope of my HF response measured off-axis at my MLP. I'm ~ 3.5-ft away from the speakers and they are 4-ft apart. The FR is much flatter when measured on-axis, but I don't listen on-axis. When you get a chance, can you please post the FR of your Kalis at the MLP?

 

[ernestcarl]

I'm not sure what else to do about the steep slope of my HF response measured off-axis at my MLP. I'm ~ 3.5-ft away from the speakers and they are 4-ft apart. The FR is much flatter when measured on-axis, but I don't listen on-axis. When you get a chance, can you please post the FR of your Kalis at the MLP?

I do not have the Kalis, but the KH120 and a sub at similar nearfield distance (but optimized) shown in post #266.

If your measurements are truly way off-axis, then the responses seen below (with a 50 dB vertical scale) sort of makes sense -- but, only partially.

Red trace is yours with +2dB HF shelving filter

Trace #2 and 3 are my left and right KH120+subwoofer at the desk MLP ~0.8 m distance on-axis using 90 degrees calibrated mic -- just note that this setup has already been optimized to the max.

My hunch is you used a L+R sweep (where distances were not set precisely enough) causing the big dips seen between 3-5 kHz. Vector averaging a completely separate left and right sweep would be one way of avoiding these HF anomalies from occurring.

Here's just an example of what one might see inside REW's alignment tool to give you an idea:

frequency dependent windowing (FDW) 15 cycles applied

The way to simulate HP and LP xo filters over raw measurements requires a roundabout method of convolution (e.g. from imported rePhase generated filters) using the 'trace arithmetic' function A*B in REW. There is a way to do this also within another simulation software called VituixCAD, though probably not specifically mixed and linear phase FIR filters, rather only minimum phase -- probably.