crinacle.com
This is fascinating. When I'm measuring mine, I see these peaks move a lot. Would you say that the characteristics of someone's inner ear are going to nullify or amplify these? Will the person wearing the IEM's experience a spike like that with what they're listening to or is it an anomaly in the measurement?Here's an explanation of the 8kHz spike that is often seen in IEM graphs.
Graphs 101: How to Read Headphone Measurements – In-Ear Fidelity
A guide to reading frequency response graphs of headphones and IEMs.
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So you're trashing the whole custom IEM market but you have very little actual experience with it? Why then do you think that the professional touring industry uses them? Should we all just switch over to Crinnacle so the artists will have a better experience?
I'm by no means an expert, but as I understand it, a resonant spike will always occur depending on the insertion depth. He "targets" the 8kHz spike across all IEMs to establish a standard measurement technique (read the above link above for a more thorough explanation). I think the take-away is that you need to be wary of IEM graphs above 6kHz. A consistent protocol can give an overview of how IEMs in upper frequencies compare to one another - but not necessarily how they will sound to each listener.
If the seal is there and it's the same isolation then I think it would probably work. I would say that the size of the venue matters less than the volume of the venue since smaller can actually make things louder on the stage.
I've seen this done. I've never done it myself but I think it could work just fine and maybe better. Most custom IEM's are hard plastic molds. When you move your jaw the seal changes. There are some companies that do the soft plastic molds and those seal better, which allow people to use them at a lower volume since there is more isolation. The problem with those is that they fall apart really easily during a tour. So we're juggling priorities here. So if you can find a way to get the seal to work and have the IEM in there then it would probably be effective. My only hesitation is that I haven't tried it myself or worked with an artist that did it.
I will have to look into them. There are so many new companies out there.
I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I can't really defend the Roxanne's much past that other than to say that I've mixed well over 500 shows on them in the last 10 years and they were a big leap in technology. That being said, there are clearly some problems with them and they are definitely not my first choice anymore since we've found much better products.
Well said. I don't know the intended frequency response with them. It's clearly not a good starting point. I will say. however, that there is a lot more low end with the seal. But the top end isn't good. Amir also didn't show a phase response on them. That's also not good. I've measured it. I can't defend the frequency response. I've been EQ'ing the sh*t out of them for 10 years. I wouldn't recommend them for anything other than live use and even then there are several newer products that are far superior.
Appreciate this perspective. I hope I answered these questions sufficiently.
That's obvious.
I never suggested otherwise. I agree with this statement. The frequency response on these is one of the major factors why I don't recommend them anymore since there are many other products that are far superior.
These were the standard for many years. They aren't anymore. We have better products now.
Yes, the isolation is key. Again, it's 75-80% of the battle when you're dealing with "A" level musicians who have excellent attention to detail. Because if they are hearing things outside of my control then I can't fix it. If it's sealed then the mix is up to me.
It happens but less and less as you move up to higher levels. This is not a statement about me being at a higher level. I'm not saying that. I'm saying what I have seen out there.
Well said. I don't ever really hear a spike up there. They don't do much over 10Khz and realistically you don't hear them doing much over 8Khz. I can hear stuff up to 13 or 14Khz with the 64 Audio stuff. I take measurements every day. I only do it to see if I have any blown drivers. The measuring can be really sensitive to aiming the in-ears differently. The spikes move. Plus, I'm basically using a 3d printer sealer over an RTA microphone so I'm sure there are some kind of resonances inherent to that. It's a sticky process trying to measure these things and extrapolate how they perform.
Yes. I greatly appreciate your kind and detailed response, and I fully understood it. Thank you.
Check this out. This is what you're talking about. I can't remember who it was, but I know a crew guy who was doing this.
www.sensaphonics.com
Some artists are extremely detailed. Some will only give me dirty looks when they don't like something. I recently had a drummer tell me "Everybody else sounds like they're playing on the album and my drums sounds..........cafeteria." I used EQ, compression and a touch of reverb and he was happy. It's a wild ride. I don't know if we're even hearing the same thing since our in-ears fit differently and their hearing could be completely different. So yeah, you get clues or criticism. Most of them just have a conversation with me and we get to where we need to be.
I totally agree. IEM's actually kinda suck but we need them.
Hahahaha! Yes! I think my head just exploded. I could not have said it that well. Now, imagine being the person performing with them. You're trying to listen and perform in real time. We have barely touched on the latency from the digital console and plugin world. But as engineers, we try to get over these problems as well as we can. We have some tricks.
Many specific objectives that are different for each performer. Neutrality is not at all important. Accuracy to the instrument can be important so that they play well, but neutrality is not important since it's different for everyone.
Epic question. I learned a lot from this thread, but the number one lesson is that I think my output EQ (master EQ so to speak) is making these things be much closer to the harmon curve. I'm always getting rid of 200Hz-500Hz and adding 2Khz to 5Khz.
Cheers!
Catching the abstract intention behind that and correcting it so precisely is amazing. nice.
Just thinking about it gives me a headache. I’ve seen how much everything can change depending on individual ear characteristics, differences in hearing, and the listener’s personal experience. Then, there’s the challenge of reconciling the difference between what sounds good for monitoring and how it sounds to the audience.
Yes, I’ve seen that many Korean musicians also use 64 Audio products. It’s quite an interesting topic.
I guessed. I got lucky.
There are similarities but it's really a different thing.
I love my job and I'm fortunate to do it. I'm happy to share experience if anyone is interested, but most people don't even know my job exists and I'm fine with that. I don't think I would start a thread on it but I will answer any questions. I'm really more on ASR to learn. It has taught me a ton and hopefully made me better at my job. It has certainly changed my mind on a lot of things!
Get an interface like a Focusrite Scarlett. Import a song into garage band. Plug a microphone into the scarlet and get it set up so you can sing along to the song through your in-ears. There you go. It's interesting to say the least....
Yep, such is the delight of measuring fixtures and the delta of actual ear geometry compared to the round metal tube (for most fixtures).
Oooohhh now it clicked. Thank you. This is indeed a bothersome design (flaw)
With 130dBV just 0.3V would be enough to reach 120dB SPL and at worst would draw 50mA but will be less in practice as no one will enjoy upper mids > 120dB.Sorry about that. Just added it to the review:
