JBL 708P Review (Professional Monitor)

[Frank Dernie]

Order a pair to be sent to a hotel in Los Angles, buy a flight ticket to LA to collect and fly back. I think you will still come out about AUD$2000 total less.

It'll be tax and import duty, which would have to be paid in customs on return. Hard to hide in the luggage and creep through "nothing to declare"

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think the +100 dB ability is more important than we intuitively might think. If we aim for +20 dB headroom for transients, that's 80 db averaged.
In a modest sized listening room I don't feel 80 dB is particularly loud.
@mitchco have written before that there's an "industry standard" for mixing (mastering?) with calibrated 83 dB SPL that is often used, which is important information for accurate tonal balance during playback as well.
Taking IMD into consideration I believe it's a bad thing to have all the transient peaks riddled with additional tones, and I must say I'm a little taken aback with this forum's tendency to declare petite speakers as top class when they're audibly not sufficient for realistic use in normal conditions.

Amir wants speakers that play loud enough, sure, but is that because he likes music loud? Can it be because he listens in mono? For me I feel music sounds louder in stereo than the same spl in mono, likely because you get enveloped in a soundstage.
It could be that he just likes the music to sound realistic in tonality and without distorting transient peaks, and 83 dB averaged from a couple of meters distance in mono is louder than most of these little boxes can effortlessly reproduce.

I really wish the IMD measurements back, Amir! THis is the only readily available place where that information can be found as of now.

My experience too.
I mainly listen to big classical works and the average loudness in some movements isn't high at all, but the quiet bits can be very quiet and I don't want them masked and the peaks are very loud indeed and I do not want them clipped. 125dB peaks are not unusual and they really show the difference between little and big speakers.
I do realise I am in a tiny minority listening to this sort of music so my requirements are not typical.

 

[Juhazi]

Listening to orchestra classical at home is difficult, even corona-era streamed concerts have very wide dynamic range - pop/rock listeners have no idea of that! I must sit with my amp's remote in my hand to adjust spl to enjoy both the quiet parts and finale FFF

 

[respice finem]

Just a "loose thought" to the whole HD/IMD thing - I guess we should not forget, good old physics is still the same as it was in the 70s. Back then, they said "there is only one substitute for membrane surface, which is more of it". This is not untrue these days either. These are relatively small speakers, and while they can play bass at reasonable levels, they can't outsmart physics.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Listening to orchestra classical at home is difficult, even corona-era streamed concerts have very wide dynamic range - pop/rock listeners have no idea of that! I must sit with my amp's remote in my hand to adjust spl to enjoy both the quiet parts and finale FFF

I live in an old detached house with neighbours far enough away for me not to disturb them.
The only disturbance possible is between my stereo and my wife's piano and they are at opposite sides of the house, so not a problem if the doors are kept shut.
I quite like photos of open plan sparsely furnished homes but one would be hopeless for us to live in!

 

[Pearljam5000]

Interesting comparison with Genelec S360

 

[Newman]

More nonsense about national/cultural sound preferences. Please get the point: people of all nations and cultures know what the natural/live sound is like of voices and many instruments, and they all prefer getting closer to that during playback of recordings. It’s a natural thing to do, and tests back it up.

Ditto for this “I listen to 125 dB peaks in my playback”. Show me a music recording that has more than 25 dB RMS Peak/RMS Average. It will be one in a million, not a whole genre. So the guy listening to 125 dB peaks when listening to recordings is listening to an average over 100 dB practically continuously. That man will be severely hearing damaged by a long, long time ago. It just isn’t real.

The above two claims are largely about post-rationalisation of preconceptions being backed up by casual sighted ‘listening’.

 

[beagleman]

More nonsense about national/cultural sound preferences. Please get the point: people of all nations and cultures know what the natural/live sound is like of voices and many instruments, and they all prefer getting closer to that during playback of recordings. It’s a natural thing to do, and tests back it up.

Ditto for this “I listen to 125 dB peaks in my playback”. Show me a music recording that has more than 25 dB RMS Peak/RMS Average. It will be one in a million, not a whole genre. So the guy listening to 125 dB peaks when listening to recordings is listening to an average over 100 dB practically continuously. That man will be severely hearing damaged by a long, long time ago. It just isn’t real.

The above two claims are largely about post-rationalisation of preconceptions being backed up by casual sighted ‘listening’.

I have done some casual sound level measurements, on many genre of music, and found even 90db to be quite loud.

The highest peaks I've measure even on several classical pieces, were honestly somewhat unbearable to my sense of hearing at even around 100-105 db.

And yes the average level was in the 80s.
It was not due to equipment overload, but more my ears just get that feeling that is sounds "too loud".

 

[Aaron Garrett]

I have done some casual sound level measurements, on many genre of music, and found even 90db to be quite loud.

The highest peaks I've measure even on several classical pieces, were honestly somewhat unbearable to my sense of hearing at even around 100-105 db.

And yes the average level was in the 80s.
It was not due to equipment overload, but more my ears just get that feeling that is sounds "too loud".

Do you think the sound felt "too loud" because of loudness or distortion? It feels to me that lack of distortion in peaks is the sine qua non of listening to orchestral music, even some solo piano, and big band music. That's why I hate it when equipment reviewers listen to such dynamically restricted music.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Indeed. Really, people need to get out more and listen to live music. Especially unamplified live music. What audiophiles think of as dynamics on their HiFi systems are just not even vaguely in the same ballpark as the real dynamics of live music.

 

[thewas]

Indeed. Really, people need to get out more and listen to live music. Especially unamplified live music. What audiophiles think of as dynamics on their HiFi systems are just not even vaguely in the same ballpark as the real dynamics of live music.

Exactly, which makes a recording an art form on its own due to various compromises, same like a video/movie vs. a real life event.

 

[Spocko]

Indeed. Really, people need to get out more and listen to live music. Especially unamplified live music. What audiophiles think of as dynamics on their HiFi systems are just not even vaguely in the same ballpark as the real dynamics of live music.

A good symphony hall designed specifically for orchestras is quite a moving experience but definitely impossible to recreate. Nevertheless an excellent sound system, whether stereo, multi-channel or even an ultra high end headphone system, will similarly deliver a musical experience albeit not "live". Maybe the problem is that we are not enjoying each of these listening experiences on their own merits. It's like taking a 5 mile trip by driving, bussing, walking or biking. Each possess unique pros & cons and yet they all take you to the same destination in their own way, and depending on our mood, on any given Sunday we may choose one over the other because music is a game of inches (sorry, couldn't resist the mixed metaphor).

 

[maverickronin]

Exactly, which makes a recording an art form on its own due to various compromises, same like a video/movie vs. a real life event.

IMO, a mix has much larger advantages. It's like comparing a movie to a play.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Amir wants speakers that play loud enough, sure, but is that because he likes music loud? Can it be because he listens in mono? For me I feel music sounds louder in stereo than the same spl in mono, likely because you get enveloped in a soundstage.
It could be that he just likes the music to sound realistic in tonality and without distorting transient peaks, and 83 dB averaged from a couple of meters distance in mono is louder than most of these little boxes can effortlessly reproduce.

This is a good point, because a second speaker playing the same mono (coherent) signal would double the amplitude (+6 dB). For stereo (noncoherent) purposes the addition of a second speaker would add around +3-5 dB depending on the playback material. In either case, it might push a speaker that is on the cusp in mono into being acceptable with two or more speakers.

 

[beagleman]

Indeed. Really, people need to get out more and listen to live music. Especially unamplified live music. What audiophiles think of as dynamics on their HiFi systems are just not even vaguely in the same ballpark as the real dynamics of live music.

I have done both. And honestly having it "loud" or dynamic even in a normal living room, is NOT the same as being in a venue or hall and having it equally loud.

Something about a small space, just makes the loudness less bearable, even at the same Db levels.
It is like loud takes over a small room.

 

[beagleman]

Do you think the sound felt "too loud" because of loudness or distortion? It feels to me that lack of distortion in peaks is the sine qua non of listening to orchestral music, even some solo piano, and big band music. That's why I hate it when equipment reviewers listen to such dynamically restricted music.

There was virtually no distortion, but more like "Ear overload" in a regular/small sized room.

My listening room is 13X20 but loud just takes over in a smallish sized room. Ive heard equally loud in far bigger rooms, but it is less strained and you can move away from it more, and the walls are further back, so you feel more at ease.

 

[respice finem]

This is a good point, because a second speaker playing the same mono (coherent) signal would double the amplitude (+6 dB). For stereo (noncoherent) purposes the addition of a second speaker would add around +3-5 dB depending on the playback material. In either case, it might push a speaker that is on the cusp in mono into being acceptable with two or more speakers.

...and, subjectively, 85dB in an untreated room with reflective surfaces will be perceived as very loud, while in a treated room it will be perceived as just right and in an "overdamped" room even a touch too quiet. People listening in mid- to farfield are hearing more of their room response than direct sound of the speakers. Many smaller studios are near- to midfield and are rather on the "overdamped" side of things.
Studio monitors should be (and most are) able to play at "live" levels (at least up to their specified distance) without audible distortion. A midfield/farfield monitor will in most cases have to be much more powerful than a nearfield monitor.

 

[respice finem]

...having it "loud" or dynamic even in a normal living room, is NOT the same as being in a venue or hall and having it equally loud. Something about a small space, just makes the loudness less bearable, even at the same Db levels. It is like loud takes over a small room.

Yes, you can't really reproduce "cathedral acoustics" in a living room, at least not with loudspeakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_distance

 

[bigLP]

If anyone is interested in the passive 708i, I have a mint condition pair for sale with matching (required DSP) amplification if needed. Pm me here or see my classifieds post on AVS.

About the preference ratings not matching subjective impressions, I think it's important to remember that coorelation is not causation.

An example that helped this to sink in for me was the following fact: the sale of ice cream is positively coorelated with the rate of pediatric head trauma. If you look at a graph of ice cream sales compared to pediatric head trauma, it looks like this:View attachment 110363
Common sense would tell you that buying Ice cream doesn't cause pediatric head trauma, but if all you looked at was the data, there could be no other conclusion.


Data is great... But don't forget to listen

This is how I introduce the difference between causation and correlation! I use a similar example with my Algebra 9 students when doing basic stats. Ice cream makes people kill. When sales of ice cream increase, so do murder and violent crime in a given area. One does not cause the other, they have a correlated, but not causal relationship. Warmer weather is causal for both. I spend a lot of time on the site trying to figure out what is causing what I hear and how things I like correlate. or maybe its is the other way around.......

 

[pma]

My experience too.
I mainly listen to big classical works and the average loudness in some movements isn't high at all, but the quiet bits can be very quiet and I don't want them masked and the peaks are very loud indeed and I do not want them clipped. 125dB peaks are not unusual and they really show the difference between little and big speakers.
I do realise I am in a tiny minority listening to this sort of music so my requirements are not typical.

Count me in the tiny minority as well .