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JBL 4367 Review (was M2 'review')

watchnerd

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It could be chick and egg: if previous technology couldn't create a powerful image, it would be put at the bottom of the list and regarded as a myth or dismissed as a parlor trick.
People enjoy it. That doesn't mean it's accurate or high fidelity.

When I mix a live 6 track down to 2 channels, the resulting imaging is an act of artifice and one I manipulate into the recording. It doesn't exist on the unmixed session tapes (well, files) or in real life if you listen to the live mic feeds at the mixing board.

That's even more true when listening to isolation-booth recorded material where the musicians are never in the same room at the same time. Or there are no musicians at all, just a producer mixing beats.
 

watchnerd

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Imaging always comes as part of the package if the system is working at a quality level - it would be totally impossible not to be aware of spatial aspects ... just relate it to listening to live sound, meaning no PA nonsense! In fact, highly engineered recordings have enormous amounts of spatial information, far more than the "real thing"! Listening to a band doing one of these 'produced' tracks, live, would be a huge letdown ...
Please tell me when / how often you listen to live sound without sound reinforcement?

Symphony? Nope -- every major symphony hall has sound reinforcement systems that are subtly used.

Small venue blues bar? Heck no, you can't play electric instruments without a PA

Small jazz club? If there are vocals, there is a PA system. And usually a small one with spot mics for the instruments, too

The exceptions are few and far between: solo piano recitals, solo guitar, and string quartets in very small venues. Even coffee houses tend to put a mic on guitar players.

The major persistent exception is opera singers.
 

fas42

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Please tell me when / how often you listen to live sound without sound reinforcement?

Symphony? Nope -- every major symphony hall has sound reinforcement systems that are subtly used.

Small venue blues bar? Heck no, you can't play electric instruments without a PA

Small jazz club? If there are vocals, there is a PA system. And usually a small one with spot mics for the instruments, too

The exceptions are few and far between: solo piano recitals, solo guitar, and string quartets in very small venues. Even coffee houses tend to put a mic on guitar players.

The major persistent exception is opera singers.
Quite a bit, still. Street buskers are good, last were a duo of violin and piano accordion, with uptempo dance tunes - the violin was very expressively done. And we have a yearly winter festival, with tons of music; yes, many were using using the really crappy PA, but there are plenty of exceptions - a group using variants of bongo drums, etc, on the march - marvellously intense sound. One year we had a big band, I stood behind the PA speakers, right next to the stage - getting the blast of a dozen brass instruments about 10 feet from me, raw. This makes all PA systems trying to do reproduce this sound like total shite, of course ...

Edit: Just because it's live and pure acoustic, doesn't mean good! A cello recital, about 20 feet away - this was paaaiinful, it dragged on and on - the chap was all about the technical aspects of the musical form of the compositions - and he sawed, on and on and on ...
 
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amirm

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Oh, I was hoping you all would forget by now.... :D

The paper is attempting to determine which equalization method is effective. Two of the equalization modes are based on anechoic measurements of the speaker: Direct and PIR (Predicted In Room). The former (Direct) uses the measurements of +- 30 degrees (i.e. the likely direct sound hitting the listener). PIR uses a weighted combination of direct, early and late reflected sounds.

In-situ (in place) method relied on actual in-room measurements. It uses "spatially averaged" (average in different location) of 6 measurements in room.

Note that the focus was for response > 400 Hz. Multiple subs were deployed but not corrected or evaluated as part of this research.

Here is what the final EQ graph looked like for each method:

upload_2016-12-26_11-36-22.png
 

watchnerd

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Oh, I was hoping you all would forget by now.... :D

The paper is attempting to determine which equalization method is effective. Two of the equalization modes are based on anechoic measurements of the speaker: Direct and PIR (Predicted In Room). The former (Direct) uses the measurements of +- 30 degrees (i.e. the likely direct sound hitting the listener). PIR uses a weighted combination of direct, early and late reflected sounds.

In-situ (in place) method relied on actual in-room measurements. It uses "spatially averaged" (average in different location) of 6 measurements in room.

Note that the focus was for response > 400 Hz. Multiple subs were deployed but not corrected or evaluated as part of this research.

Here is what the final EQ graph looked like for each method:

View attachment 4159
So, for stereo, it seems like the PIR (I assume the EQ was applied just based on room dimensions and listening location, plus the anechoic data), ties or beats the In Situ or Direct on preferences. And for mono PIR wins.

If that's the case, it seems like DRC could have only two inputs: an anechoic measurement file for your speaker + data about your room size and listening locations. No in-room measurements needed.
 

amirm

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No, the study is careful to say that all three methods beat doing no EQ but their differences were too small to say one is better than the other in this specific test. If you look at the error bars you see that they pretty much overlap.

Speakers wildly vary in response as you know so tests of other speakers may reveal different results.
 
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Cosmik

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People enjoy it. That doesn't mean it's accurate or high fidelity.
I find that statement a non-sequitur, like saying that a system's ability to reproduce deep bass, is "not accurate or high fidelity", and somehow frivolous because people enjoy it. It doesn't really mean anything.

If the imaging is part of the recording (and it may have got there simply because it's an automatic by-product of ordinary recording techniques - although maybe the recording engineer himself didn't hear it because his speakers were not too good) then a good playback system will reproduce it, and a poor one won't.
 

watchnerd

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I find that statement a non-sequitur, like saying that a system's ability to reproduce deep bass, is "not accurate or high fidelity", and somehow frivolous because people enjoy it. It doesn't really mean anything.
The point being "stereo imaging is not accurate to real life." Yes, if it's in the recording, an ideal high fidelity system should be able to reproduce the parlor trick.

But no audio system is ideal and everything is a compromise. Would I comprise other attributes in favoring of maxing out stereo imaging? Not me, personally -- I'd trade better everything else and get less stereo imaging, because real life doesn't have pinpoint imaging.

I used to have a pair of NHT Super Zeros. The imaging was amazing. But they couldn't play loud, didn't have bass, and were too weak in the upper bass / lower mids to mate well with a subwoofer. So their ability to pull of the trick of great imaging wasn't enough to overcome their weakness in other areas and thus, ultimately, they weren't very accurate or high fidelity.

Overly optimizing for stereo imaging is icing on the cake best left until the rest of the cake is done being baked.
 

TitaniumTroy

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JBL 4367 white paper:
http://www.newaudio.it/JBL/4367 JBL (1)/JBL Synthesis 4367 White Paper.pdf
Going to hear these on Tuesday at Audio Solutions in Indianapolis, so the room will be much better. Than when I heard this pair at AXPONA, renting an SUV to carry them home in case I buy them. The Revels might beat these in smoothness and integration of the drivers, but I would still take the JBL's any day hands down.

But hey that's just me and I worship at the church of imaging/soundstage. Otherwise its seems flat and uninteresting to me.
 

Sal1950

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JBL 4367 white paper:
http://www.newaudio.it/JBL/4367 JBL (1)/JBL Synthesis 4367 White Paper.pdf
Going to hear these on Tuesday at Audio Solutions in Indianapolis, so the room will be much better. Than when I heard this pair at AXPONA, renting an SUV to carry them home in case I buy them. The Revels might beat these in smoothness and integration of the drivers, but I would still take the JBL's any day hands down.

But hey that's just me and I worship at the church of imaging/soundstage. Otherwise its seems flat and uninteresting to me.
WOW, you found a pair locally to demo, awesome!
I'm so envious.
Hope it works out exactly the way you'd like.
 

watchnerd

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JBL 4367 white paper:
http://www.newaudio.it/JBL/4367 JBL (1)/JBL Synthesis 4367 White Paper.pdf
Going to hear these on Tuesday at Audio Solutions in Indianapolis, so the room will be much better. Than when I heard this pair at AXPONA, renting an SUV to carry them home in case I buy them. The Revels might beat these in smoothness and integration of the drivers, but I would still take the JBL's any day hands down.

But hey that's just me and I worship at the church of imaging/soundstage. Otherwise its seems flat and uninteresting to me.
The JBLs definitely look cooler than the Revels.
 

RayDunzl

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Going to hear these on Tuesday at Audio Solutions in Indianapolis
"The 4367 is definitely a model that is engineered to deliver accurate sound and show with their performance why they are the top of the line of the Studio Monitor series."

I thought the M2 was the "top of the line".

So, I go to JBL Studio Monitors and the 4367 isn't there, nor the M2.

http://shop.harmanpro.com/c/speakers_jbl-studio-monitors

Well, found the M2 under "Broadcast and Recording" at another Harman site.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/

Gotta go to the boutique guys and haggle with them but since you don't want to have a Home Theater installed, I'm not very good at that sort of thing.

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/product...products/type/floorstanding-loudspeakers.html

Oh my, they are "Floorstanding Loudspeakers", not "Studio Monitors". My mistake! I believed their documents.

Local Dealers
http://www.easyliving.net/

Here's their JBL picture. I wonder if that guy is the customer or the installer.

upload_2017-5-7_21-37-37.png


Maybe the customer. I'd have about the same expression if my room suddenly looked like that.

Oh yeah, that's just what I want... Trump Castle Gold Leaf Filigree installation package.

Next:

http://www.avlpro.com/about
http://www.avlpro.com/products - JBL not even listed

JBL Synthesis Dealer Locator Map

upload_2017-5-7_21-32-41.png


I'm not driving 300-600 miles.

Good luck on your demo!
 

Sal1950

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