Is there a speaker more useful for me than the D&D 8C?

[MKR]

Like I said: the vast majority of people will not notice. I just know what it sounds like because the KH310s do the same exact thing when pushed beyond where they want to be, but before they really start breaking up. They get a little boxy, and on certain songs I can pick it out. And no, the majority of the speakers I've tested thus far didn't.


Not particularly loud, but this song I find to be pretty punishing for speakers once you push it a bit.

I really have a hard time believing what you heard was audible distortion. Not saying I don’t believe you, your experience was your experience and you heard something unpleasant to your ears (brain). But unless you were listening at ear shattering levels, I suspect something else going on here besides distortion.

 

[dfuller]

I really have a hard time believing what you heard was audible distortion. Not saying I don’t believe you, your experience was your experience and you heard something unpleasant to your ears (brain), but I suspect something besides distortion.

Looking at the distortion graphs that Erin has for the 8C, you can see that higher order distortion increases too - it's not just (benign) 2nd and 3rd order that are masked to absolutely silly levels (10%+), but 5th order starts going up too, and that's much more audible. I'd bet with my listening level the bass region was around 90dB - which given the slope of music is substantially lower in the midrange and treble, probably closer to 80dB on average.

And it definitely wasn't so objectionable that I completely stopped considering the 8Cs - they are phenomenal speakers in pretty much all other ways. I'd have zero problem working on them.

 

[Purité Audio]

This one, you obviously have remarkable hearing.
Keith

 

[dfuller]

This one, you obviously have remarkable hearing.

Not for nothing, but 1.5% or so of H5 is pretty high, even at 100hz. Don't take this as a personal attack, because I wouldn't buy from you anyway - shipping from the UK doesn't make much sense. The 8Cs are awesome. For me I found this to be really their only (slight) weakness.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe you thought you heard something, but I am just surprised that with all the pairs I have sold to ‘pro’ engineers you ( after only a forty minute demo at VK) hear something that no one else has reported, and which after nearly seven years or comparison with many other designs of loudspeaker I have never noticed.
I compared that track today 8Cs and Sigberg Mantas still no ‘boxy’ distortion at uncomfortably loud levels.
Keith

 

[goat76]

Not for nothing, but 1.5% or so of H5 is pretty high, even at 100hz. Don't take this as a personal attack, because I wouldn't buy from you anyway - shipping from the UK doesn't make much sense. The 8Cs are awesome. For me I found this to be really their only (slight) weakness.

But it's a weakness that no one can do anything about except turn down the volume to a low or an average level. Most problems other than a high level of distortion can easily be dealt with like making adjustments to the frequency range or taking care of minor deviations in the off-axis response with some room treatments. When a loudspeaker distorts much as the Dutch & Dutch 8C do, you can't do anything about it, it's pretty clear it tries to do more than the physics allows.

 

[MKR]

But it's a weakness that no one can do anything about except turn down the volume to a low or an average level. Most problems other than a high level of distortion can easily be dealt with like making adjustments to the frequency range or taking care of minor deviations in the off-axis response with some room treatments. When a loudspeaker distorts much as the Dutch & Dutch 8C do, you can't do anything about it, it's pretty clear it tries to do more than the physics allows.

Well, true, but you are assuming it was actually distortion that was the issue in this particular case. I am doubtful.

 

[goat76]

I believe you thought you heard something, but I am just surprised that with all the pairs I have sold to ‘pro’ engineers you ( after only a forty minute demo at VK) hear something that no one else has reported, and which after nearly seven years or comparison with many other designs of loudspeaker I have never noticed.
I compared that track today 8Cs and Sigberg Mantas still no ‘boxy’ distortion at uncomfortably loud levels.
Keith

Please name the "pro" engineers you have sold the 8C to, I'm interested in checking out their audio productions.

And besides that, who are the pro studios using this speaker?
Can you name a few, I want to hear some audio productions made on the 8C.

 

[goat76]

Well, true, but you are assuming it was actually distortion that was the issue in this particular case. I am doubtful.

When it looks like this, you don't have to "assume" much. If you are listening to the speaker in a lively environment it's probably not a problem, the problem downs in other problems. But if you have a critical setup in a good room, you will most likely hear that level of distortion.

 

[prestigetone]

I do not understand why people assume that other members are hearing it wrong. Funny thing is how the objective data points to distortion, which is the entire point of ASR. And @dfuller does mastering (only assume you come from that world as I think I saw you on the discord). He is now the second person to have passed on the 8C who works with sound for a living, not referring to myself. Not saying pros are not immune from bias.

I too sold my 8cs and probably would not go back. Of course the dealers on here will question anything that goes against the product they sell. Everyone has an angle. Curious to see how you get along with the 420s.

 

[goat76]

I do not understand why people assume that other members are hearing it wrong. Funny thing is how the objective data points to distortion, which is the entire point of ASR. And @dfuller does mastering (only assume you come from that world as I think I saw you on the discord). He is now the second person to have passed on the 8C who works with sound for a living, not referring to myself. Not saying pros are not immune from bias.

I too sold my 8cs and probably would not go back. Of course the dealers on here will question anything that goes against the product they sell. Everyone has an angle. Curious to see how you get along with the 420s.

Yes. it will be highly interesting to see how @dfuller gets along with the Neumann 420s, I think it will be great as he seems to seek a monitor with low distortion and with high SPL capacity.

 

[dfuller]

I do not understand why people assume that other members are hearing it wrong. Funny thing is how the objective data points to distortion, which is the entire point of ASR. And @dfuller does mastering (only assume you come from that world as I think I saw you on the discord). He is now the second person to have passed on the 8C who works with sound for a living, not referring to myself. Not saying pros are not immune from bias.

I too sold my 8cs and probably would not go back. Of course the dealers on here will question anything that goes against the product they sell. Everyone has an angle. Curious to see how you get along with the 420s.

Which discord? LWMR? PDP? But yeah, I do mastering, it's my main gig outside of my day job (which is still audio related, I work in the music production department of a college).

 

[MKR]

I do not understand why people assume that other members are hearing it wrong. Funny thing is how the objective data points to distortion, which is the entire point of ASR. And @dfuller does mastering (only assume you come from that world as I think I saw you on the discord). He is now the second person to have passed on the 8C who works with sound for a living, not referring to myself. Not saying pros are not immune from bias.

I too sold my 8cs and probably would not go back. Of course the dealers on here will question anything that goes against the product they sell. Everyone has an angle. Curious to see how you get along with the 420s.

I am not a dealer, nor has anyone stated @dfuller didn't hear an issue. Clearly he did. Just having an open discussion as to what may be the issue here. Certainly even D&D has stated they made a compromise in the design related to distortion. You can only expect so much from an 8” driver. So certainly possible distortion is the culprit.

With above said, since we are citing Erin’s review, he also made the below statement…

“Speaking of distortion, yes, the measured harmonic distortion is relatively high. But, in my listening tests I had this speaker playing as high as 105dB @ 4 meters with no audible distortion other than the things that were buzzing in my living room”

 

[dfuller]

I am not a dealer

FWIW, I was able to reproduce it across two pairs in two different rooms.

 

[Absolute]

I don't doubt something noticeable is happening at loud spl. I don't know if the rather high 3rd order distortion is audible or not, but I know the compression will be very audible and the resonance at around 400 hz that increases the louder you play will likely stick out if you know what to listen for.

Multi-tone distortion would probably show the limits of the speaker more clearly.

Dutch & Dutch 8c Speaker Review

Dutch & Dutch 8c Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

If you need capacity, small speakers are not the answer.

 

[prestigetone]

I am not a dealer

Wasnt referring to you.

Which discord? LWMR? PDP? But yeah, I do mastering, it's my main gig outside of my day job (which is still audio related, I work in the music production department of a college).

You seem extremely knowledgeable and thoughtful. Your work is what results in the things we output on said speakers. Ha. You know way more than I do.

 

[MKR]

FWIW, I was able to reproduce it across two pairs in two different rooms.

A much more valid observation indeed, thanks for that data point

 

[prestigetone]

I am not a dealer, nor has anyone stated @dfuller didn't hear an issue. Clearly he did. Just having an open discussion as to what may be the issue here. Let’s not turn this into a “mine is better than yours” discussion. Thanks

I was asking the question of why people go to "I am incredulous". Rather than leaning into why this person heard what they heard and validating that. Like I said op has more audio experience than most.

 

[Purité Audio]

Please name the "pro" engineers you have sold the 8C to, I'm interested in checking out their audio productions.

And besides that, who are the pro studios using this speaker?
Can you name a few, I want to hear some audio productions made on the 8C.

Matt Wiggins he usually works out of the Church, George Apsion at Kore, Alex Balsama at Swift Mastering.
How many more would you like?
Keith

 

[goat76]

Matt Wiggins he usually works out of the Church, George Apsion at Kore, Alex Balsama at Swift Mastering.
How many more would you like?
Keith

Do you find the quality of their audio productions higher than average?