Is there a speaker more useful for me than the D&D 8C?

[dfuller]

So, I'm planning out a whole new studio space. Primarily I will be mastering in it. I'm factoring in, at a later date, new speakers (my KH310s will be more than fine to start with). I'd be listening between 1.5-2 meters away. I'll be using a Lynx Aurora (n) 8, to which Lynx is adding speaker calibration and bass management to supposedly in July. I currently have one Rythmik F12, and will add another.

So, I'm looking at speakers around 10-15,000 US per pair.

First on my list is the D&D 8C. The directionality down to ~100hz is appealing, and it should make SBIR less of an issue. However, they don't go particularly loud as a result of the cardioid loading. Obviously, they measure beautifully and also have very high ratings from subjectivists, so they clearly are doing something right.

However, I am also considering Neumann KH420s. These are cheaper, go substantially louder sans distortion, and seemingly have a slightly broader vertical sweet spot... but they lack the cardioid loading. However, I have heard complaints that the ports are a bit over-tuned and ring a bit more than strictly necessary.

Third, Genelec 1237s. Biggest, loudest, and have GLM baked in. Middle of the pack pricewise, but a very good rep...

Anything else I'm missing that is worth looking at?

 

[Deleted member 4708]

D&D 8C has distortion around 3% at 200Hz and 1% at 1kHz at 96db. If an amp / DAC / etc would perform this poor everyone would scream murder. For a fraction of the price KH150 has much lower distortion and very good dispersion. Add a sub and you are done. KH420 is also great.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

RTM10 is worth a look - MUSA

 

[Purité Audio]

So, I'm planning out a whole new studio space. Primarily I will be mastering in it. I'm factoring in, at a later date, new speakers (my KH310s will be more than fine to start with). I'd be listening between 1.5-2 meters away. I'll be using a Lynx Aurora (n) 8, to which Lynx is adding speaker calibration and bass management to supposedly in July. I currently have one Rythmik F12, and will add another.

So, I'm looking at speakers around 10-15,000 US per pair.

First on my list is the D&D 8C. The directionality down to ~100hz is appealing, and it should make SBIR less of an issue. However, they don't go particularly loud as a result of the cardioid loading. Obviously, they measure beautifully and also have very high ratings from subjectivists, so they clearly are doing something right.

However, I am also considering Neumann KH420s. These are cheaper, go substantially louder sans distortion, and seemingly have a slightly broader vertical sweet spot... but they lack the cardioid loading. However, I have heard complaints that the ports are a bit over-tuned and ring a bit more than strictly necessary.

Third, Genelec 1237s. Biggest, loudest, and have GLM baked in. Middle of the pack pricewise, but a very good rep...

Anything else I'm missing that is worth looking at?

You are sitting 1.5-2m away and you don’t believe the 8Cs will be loud enough?
How quickly do you want to become profoundly deaf?
Re distortion, the 8Cs /Kiis etc are always beaten with this stick, I suggest you listen to the two possibles at home and listen for distortion.
I don’t know whereabouts you are but if you are interested in cardioid response then perhaps reach out to Thorblørn Sigberg his new ‘Mantas’ would meet all your requirements.
Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

What did you end up buying ?

 

[dfuller]

What did you end up buying ?

I didn't. This is next year stuff. Big purchases, need to save for a while.

 

[prestigetone]

D&D 8C has distortion around 3% at 200Hz and 1% at 1kHz at 96db. If an amp / DAC / etc would perform this poor everyone would scream murder. For a fraction of the price KH150 has much lower distortion and very good dispersion. Add a sub and you are done. KH420 is also great.

This is mentioned in Erin's Audio Corner review. Sounds like a non-issue but my technical background is limited. Here is the excerpt:

• There is also a mild directivity mismatch at the crossover, but I am impressed it is so minimal given the size of the midrange and the center-to-center spacing of the tweeter/midrange. Of course, the 1250Hz crossover helps to alleviate this, though one expects an increase in distortion from the tweeter with such a relatively low crossover point. While the distortion profile is higher at 1kHz than at 2kHz , it appears this portion of the distortion profile is due to the midrange and not the tweeter. sdw There is no way to know for sure without testing the raw drive units with implemented crossover but I think that’s too far down in to the weeds (even for me).
• Speaking of distortion, yes, the measured harmonic distortion is relatively high. But, in my listening tests I had this speaker playing as high as 105dB @ 4 meters with no audible distortion other than the things that were buzzing in my living room. I even used test tones to see if I could hear the distortion in my MLP but, alas, the fireplace was vibrating as were some of the items in the bookshelves. Not to mention room modes. I’m not saying that someone else couldn’t hear the distortion if trying. But in my case, in a real living room with other things about, the distortion measured didn’t correlate to distortion heard if for no other reason than it was masked by all the things that make a real room a room. Aside from THD/HD profiles, the real “selling point” was the lack of mechanical issues. I have had numerous speakers in my room that couldn’t get past 90 or 95dB without bottoming out, flopping around, or otherwise emitting audible issues. These issues are much, much more audible than distortion. And in all of those cases, those issues still remained even when a HPF was implemented to help diminish those things. Yet, at >100dB, the DD8c speaker had no such issues while playing down to 20Hz. I can’t name another speaker I have tested thus far that has done this. Not even the venerable F226Be which rolled off at around 50Hz. I’m not making excuses. I have no reason to. Truthfully, I was surprised by the relatively high level of HD components. But, in my real-world listening they didn’t manifest in to issues. YMMV.

 

[ferrellms]

D&D 8C has distortion around 3% at 200Hz and 1% at 1kHz at 96db. If an amp / DAC / etc would perform this poor everyone would scream murder. For a fraction of the price KH150 has much lower distortion and very good dispersion. Add a sub and you are done. KH420 is also great.

Hey thanks for that. You have trashed a state-of the-art monitor due to an essentially useless measurement. Have you ever heard them? Do you have any idea of what audible difference that much distortion makes? That levels of distortion in electronics are much more audible than similar amounts of distortions in speakers? How loud do you listen? What do you have now? Please let us know. Take a look at spinorama.org and you will see that kii and DD are rated higher than any other speakers.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I used to own the Dutch&Dutch 8C and the strain in the 100-300Hz was slightly audible at higher listening levels. It wasn't huge but it was there.

OP, also consider Genelec 8351B with subs.

Realistically you wouldn't even need that much SPL at your listening distance, but it's good to have headroom well in excess of your listening levels so that distortion and compression are nonexistent at all times.

 

[Purité Audio]

Owned them since they were released in fact before they were released never heard any distortion at extremely high levels, you do realise how potentially dangerous high SPLs can be for your long term hearing.
As to the recommendation for 8351bs I would only countenance
them in the near field below two metres.
Keith

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Also keep in mind that Purite above is a dealer for Dutch&Dutch and not Genelec.

I owned them both for a long time and don't have a dog in this fight. They are both state of the art speaker designs.

I would choose Dutch&Dutch over the Genelec 1237 unless those are going to be soffit mounted. Dutch & Dutch performs best when it is placed right in front of the wall.

Also, Dutch&Dutch has no good subwoofer integration. You will have to use some kind of external crossover if you want to use subs.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Also keep in mind that Purite above is a dealer for Dutch&Dutch and not Genelec.

I owned them both for a long time and don't have a dog in this fight. They are both state of the art speaker designs.

I would choose Dutch&Dutch over the Genelec 1237 unless those are going to be soffit mounted. Dutch & Dutch performs best when it is placed right in front of the wall.

Also, Dutch&Dutch has no good subwoofer integration. You will have to use some kind of external crossover if you want to use subs.

Can you compare Genelec 8361 and 8C sound quality wise ? thanks

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Can you compare Genelec 8361 and 8C sound quality wise ? thanks

I never owned the 8361A

 

[Pearljam5000]

I never owned the 8361A

Ooops
Sorry , 8351

 

[Purité Audio]

Can you compare Genelec 8361 and 8C sound quality wise ? thanks

Only had the 8260as here ( and twin 7360 subs) at the same time as the 8cs.
Both really excellent this would have been before REW integration Roon ready and now Bacch, you can use subs with 8cs but they already have excellent bass extension.
I have had the 8351s here and 15” sub I and compared them to the 8Cs I will post a photo.
Keith

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Ooops
Sorry , 8351

I never compared them side by side when I owned them so I don't think I can't say that much on that front. Both sounded basically perfect to me.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I don't want it to sound like I am trashing Dutch&Dutch. They are among the best speakers I have ever heard. It sounds like max SPL is an important consideration for OP, so I want to emphasize that they do not get very loud for their size. In terms of SPL they perform more like smaller speakers. The limiters are set at 106dB.

 

[Purité Audio]

8351B 103dB so perhaps also not ideal for the op.
Keith

 

[prestigetone]

I don't want it to sound like I am trashing Dutch&Dutch. They are among the best speakers I have ever heard. It sounds like max SPL is an important consideration for OP, so I want to emphasize that they do not get very loud for their size. In terms of SPL they perform more like smaller speakers. The limiters are set at 106dB.

What do you own now?

 

[AmielMix]

You are sitting 1.5-2m away and you don’t believe the 8Cs will be loud enough?
How quickly do you want to become profoundly deaf?
Re distortion, the 8Cs /Kiis etc are always beaten with this stick, I suggest you listen to the two possibles at home and listen for distortion.
I don’t know whereabouts you are but if you are interested in cardioid response then perhaps reach out to Thorblørn Sigberg his new ‘Mantas’ would meet all your requirements.
Keith

I Agree, I had so many great monitors in my studio, I never ever played my 8C to the fullest, that is nutz in my book, they are loud enough to me
Regarding distortion, mmm I only see specs as a reference. there are so many factors that play into a speaker performance than just cold specs, and to me the 8C are so natural sounding, my previous Genelec 8351 sound a bit crunchy in comparison