Is there a battery backup standalone without surge protector?

[Pancreas]

I have SurgeX - 10 outlet standalone. Everywhere I read it is said that is not recommended to connect a UPS to a surge protector. That both alternatives are not good. Either connecting a UPS to a surge protector or vice versa. The latter is worse.

The problem here is that the UPS has a MOV surge protector. I just need a battery, not one with a surge protector. Does that even exist? People argue that why would you need to connect to a protector when the UPS has one? Those surge protectors in the UPS are not good and comparable to cheap surge protector strips.

There are series mode products with UPS from SurgeX but are expensive, only in rack mode, and only have 6 outlets

SurgeX has a standalone battery backup but is like a rack size and $1700

https://www.ametekesp.com/surgex/ups-standalone/ups-standalone-120-208v

 

[GXAlan]

The major theme of your posts have been on clean AC power and surge suppression. You’re probably spending more time and energy on this than you have to. Edit: to Clarify, you’ll be OK not worrying about this and spending more of your budget on other gear.

Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products. | Schneider Electric USA

For audio equipment protection or non life sustaining products, I don’t think it matters. The concerns are related to the UPS assuming it has more power and current available than it can actually deliver or when you have such a higher current drop on your line that the UPS assumes you have a brown out (since you have 15A total per outlet).

Edit: so the idea is that if your home oxygen generator has 2 or 3 hours of endurance on battery, you really want to know. If your UPS says you can finish your movie but you run out of batteries first, it’s not a disaster.

 

[Pancreas]

I’m on the spectrum. I have lots of interests and obsessions lol

 

[Count Arthur]

I’m on the spectrum.

Everybody is, it's a spectrum.

 

[Pancreas]

Everybody is, it's a spectrum.

negative

 

[GXAlan]

I’m on the spectrum. I have lots of interests and obsessions lol

It’s fine. It’s okay to obsess over the details. I think anyone on this message board “enjoys” the details as much as the music and movies.

Always happy to help. What you can do is to play pink noise with your setup attached to the UPS and then pink noise with your setup attached to a surge protector attached to a UPS and see if there is any difference, and how big of a difference it really is.

You also have to think about your sources (if you have UPS, but your neighborhood Internet is down, doesn't help to have battery backup). And then, depending on your gear, it may be cheaper to just put the money in the bank as a rainy-day electronics fund.

If you own your home, going solar with something like a whole house battery backup is a great idea to help the environment and solve your UPS capacity and surge issues.

 

[digitalfrost]

If you buy a online UPS (uninterruptible power supply) with VFI (voltage + frequency independent) it will be independent of the outside power grid.

Uninterruptible power supply - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And obvisouly they come with a battery. I'm not an expert by any means but I think this is probably the best surge protector you can get since the power is actively decoupled from whatever is going on in the power grid. Everything you use is generated from the battery.

Depending on the devices you're using you might wanna make sure it's creating a pure sine wave at the output, not a stepped sine wave.

 

[T0paz]

ZeroSurge has an article that discusses placing their Series Mode filter between the power source (Generator or Utility company) and the UPS, you can read the article here, and specifically they have a tech note on how to use a series mode filter to protect a UPS.

In our home we use 8 CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS's to send a shutdown signal to our servers (one is our cloud) and our computers after 5 minutes of losing utility power. Either a SurgeX SX-1115-RT or a ZeroSurge 2R15W/8R15W are ahead of the UPS. The Series Mode filters render the MOV surge protection in the UPS dormant.

UPS's come in many flavors.

(1) The least expensive is the standby model where the switch to battery is fairly fast (but sometimes the device attached to the UPS powers down). Many of these output a square wave and the higher quality models output a stepped square wave to approximate a sine wave. This type of UPS does not handle swells or sags in electricity while they are in standby mode, and sags can be very detrimental to modern day electronics.

(2) The next UPS is the "line interactive" in which power for your device is from the utility company and when power is lost, the UPS runs from battery. These units often can handle swells and sags so they offer line conditioning. Most either output a stepped square wave or pure sine wave

(3) The 3rd type of UPS is the one that provides double conversion, that is AC is converted to DC to charge batteries and then an inverter is used to convert the DC to AC usually as a pure sine wave. These units are often used in industrial situations or more mission critical equipment. There are some smaller scale consumer models but are not cheap.

A common misconception is that all UPS are double conversion which they are not. Most consumers will do well with a line interactive model that outputs a pure sine wave, however, just like MOV based surge protection consumers will often purchase sub $75 UPS for home use not realizing that square waves are not the best for the electronics. In other words, most people seem to want to spend the least amount of money, until something bad happens.

To the best of my knowledge there are no commercial UPS that do not include some type of MOV based Surge Protection. The SPD within the UPS generally turns on at 800 volts or more (to avoid frequent returns). You might say the UPS is protecting the SPD in the UPS.

 

[Pancreas]

ZeroSurge has an article that discusses placing their Series Mode filter between the power source (Generator or Utility company) and the UPS, you can read the article here, and specifically they have a tech note on how to use a series mode filter to protect a UPS.

In our home we use 8 CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS's to send a shutdown signal to our servers (one is our cloud) and our computers after 5 minutes of losing utility power. Either a SurgeX SX-1115-RT or a ZeroSurge 2R15W/8R15W are ahead of the UPS. The Series Mode filters render the MOV surge protection in the UPS dormant.

UPS's come in many flavors.

(1) The least expensive is the standby model where the switch to battery is fairly fast (but sometimes the device attached to the UPS powers down). Many of these output a square wave and the higher quality models output a stepped square wave to approximate a sine wave. This type of UPS does not handle swells or sags in electricity while they are in standby mode, and sags can be very detrimental to modern day electronics.

(2) The next UPS is the "line interactive" in which power for your device is from the utility company and when power is lost, the UPS runs from battery. These units often can handle swells and sags so they offer line conditioning. Most either output a stepped square wave or pure sine wave

(3) The 3rd type of UPS is the one that provides double conversion, that is AC is converted to DC to charge batteries and then an inverter is used to convert the DC to AC usually as a pure sine wave. These units are often used in industrial situations or more mission critical equipment. There are some smaller scale consumer models but are not cheap.

A common misconception is that all UPS are double conversion which they are not. Most consumers will do well with a line interactive model that outputs a pure sine wave, however, just like MOV based surge protection consumers will often purchase sub $75 UPS for home use not realizing that square waves are not the best for the electronics. In other words, most people seem to want to spend the least amount of money, until something bad happens.

To the best of my knowledge there are no commercial UPS that do not include some type of MOV based Surge Protection. The SPD within the UPS generally turns on at 800 volts or more (to avoid frequent returns). You might say the UPS is protecting the SPD in the UPS.

in the very link you attached, there is a video next to the "Battery backup". Click to watch it and they say it has to be connected to their 2r model. If you connect a UPS to their 6 or 8R or 10R, it would considered daisy chaining. That's what I would rather avoid. They don't recommend connecting either a UPS or surge protector strip their more than 2 outlet units.

Maybe I would've been served better with their 2 outlet unit and a UPS for battery backup. I got the 10 outlets one for convenience, but do UPS even have 10 outlets? Most don't even have 8 I think. That's why I'm looking for a battery backup standalone without MOV, without any protection. Does that even exist?

I simply want a battery backup to not lose anything on the computer and prevent shutdowns on my console and PC

Another option is to buy a UPS solely for my PC and gaming console, then connect everything else to Surgex, but then I'm only being protected by MOV

 

[T0paz]

in the very link you attached, there is a video next to the "Battery backup". Click to watch it and they say it has to be connected to their 2r model. If you connect a UPS to their 6 or 8R or 10R, it would considered daisy chaining. That's what I would rather avoid. They don't recommend connecting either a UPS or surge protector strip their more than 2 outlet units.

Maybe I would've been served better with their 2 outlet unit and a UPS for battery backup. I got the 10 outlets one for convenience, but do UPS even have 10 outlets? Most don't even have 8 I think. That's why I'm looking for a battery backup standalone without MOV, without any protection. Does that even exist?

I simply want a battery backup to not lose anything on the computer and prevent shutdowns on my console and PC

Another option is to buy a UPS solely for my PC and gaming console, then connect everything else to Surgex, but then I'm only being protected by MOV

Thank-you for pointing the video out. Zero Surge appears to be differentiating between a 2R and a 6/8/10R when it comes to daisy chaining. The Fire Code states for compliance, each power strip should be plugged into a permanently installed outlet.

The question is how can Zero Surge make a differentiation between a 2R and a 6/8/10R? Either it's allowed or not at all. Their 2/6/8R models all have a 6-foot cord, so it's not about cord length. Unless they are saying to restrict the Series Mode filter to one outlet but I cannot find that in the Fire Code

A 15-Amp branch circuit should never be overloaded i.e. never have more than 80% of its breaker value. For a 15-Amp breaker, the branch circuit should never have more than 80% x 15 Amps = 12 Amps of load and if a typical branch circuit has 8-10 outlets (some have more than that and it's ridiculous), then each outlet should see no more than 1.2 to 1.5 Amps of load.

A way to easily keep track of total loads is to use a like this one.

The CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD has 12 outlets on the back.

I would avoid mixing SPD technologies if you can help it.

P.S.The back of my Sansui receiver has two outlets, one switched and one unswitched, using either today would mean to be in non-compliance with the Fire code.

UPDATE 1
Here's a link to the June 2016 specification on the wayback machine for the 6R/8R models. No mention about daisy chaining

Here's a link to the August 2019 specification on the wayback machine for the 6R/8R models. No mention about daisy chaining

Here's a link to the April 2022 specification on the wayback machine for the 6R/8R models where ZeroSurge has added the note regarding daisy chaining. So this seems to be a recent change that ZeroSurge made, and only they can state why they did this.

UPDATE 2
UL 1363, Standard for Relocatable Power Taps refers to three or more receptacle in FPDU (Furniture Power Distribution Units) as well as RPT (Relocatable Power Taps), so that may be a distinction between the 2R and 6/8/10R products.

To me it all comes back to safety and whether a consumer can keep track of the total load and not exceed safety margins i.e. leave 20% of the branch circuit unused in case of unexpected behavior of an attached electrical device. I think the watt-meters are a an easy way for a homeowner to ensure they are not exceeding the total load especially when paired with a device like this AC Circuit Breaker finder so that all outlets on the same branch circuit can be verified if they are not already known.

In addition, state jurisdictions may place more restrictions on a relocatable power tap. I found that West Virginia states an RPT applies to 2 or more outlets, but I haven't checked all 50 states and in many states, local (county or city) jurisdictions place further restrictions.

 

[amirm]

Everywhere I read it is said that is not recommended to connect a UPS to a surge protector.

You can plug one into the other. The admonishment is a general one and the worry is that there will be a lot of loads hanging off of one outlet. Not because the surge protector does anything bad to the UPS and vice versa. Just be sure to not overload the total amount of power available from one outlet.

The question is how can Zero Surge make a differentiation between a 2R and a 6/8/10R?

I think the reason is what I explained above. They worry that with a surge protector that has many outlets already, you will have way too many once you add the UPS.

 

[Pancreas]

You can plug one into the other. The admonishment is a general one and the worry is that there will be a lot of loads hanging off of one outlet. Not because the surge protector does anything bad to the UPS and vice versa. Just be sure to not overload the total amount of power available from one outlet.


I think the reason is what I explained above. They worry that with a surge protector that has many outlets already, you will have way too many once you add the UPS.

how come there is no UPS without surge protector?

 

[Speedskater]

Almost everything that plugs into AC power has surge protection.
You would be hard pressed to buy any item much larger than a wall-wort that doesn't have surge protectors.
I guess that a modern home has dozens of surge protectors.

 

[Devnull]

how come there is no UPS without surge protector?

Because the surge protection built-in the UPS helps protect it. UPS doesn't do any good if it's been damaged from a power surge.

 

[Pancreas]

So how can i connect my 10 outlet surgex standalone to a UPS without blowing up my house

 

[JustJones]

So how can i connect my 10 outlet surgex standalone to a UPS without blowing up my house

I think you want to connect it the other way around. The primary surge protector should be before the UPS.

Protecting an Unninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) - ALLTEC’s

“I have a UPS, why do I need an SPD?” For over 15 years this has been a common objection dealt with on a regular basis. Following are some facts about UPS systems and their susceptibility issues, as well as some comments from IEEE.

alltecglobal.com

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/support/eaton-answers/ups-vs--surge-suppressor.html

 

[Pancreas]

I think you want to connect it the other way around. The primary surge protector should be before the UPS.

Protecting an Unninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) - ALLTEC’s

“I have a UPS, why do I need an SPD?” For over 15 years this has been a common objection dealt with on a regular basis. Following are some facts about UPS systems and their susceptibility issues, as well as some comments from IEEE.

alltecglobal.com

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/support/eaton-answers/ups-vs--surge-suppressor.html

so primary surge protector to the wall and then connect UPS to surge protector without using more outlet on the primary surge protector

that begs the question the hell did i buy a 10 outlet for then

 

[Pancreas]

 

[JustJones]

begs the question the hell did i buy a 10 outlet for then

The only thing I would want on a UPSupply is something where losing data during a power outage would be a problem. I've never had stereo equipment connected to them.

 

[Dialectic]

Because we live in the NYC area and have unreliable ConEd power, I use several small UPSs to keep internet and phone service (all now on fiber only in this area) from going out during the frequent momentary power outages here. Lead acid UPS batteries are a fire hazard and, while they are unlikely to burn down your house, will make a mess and emit a lot of acrid smoke if they go up.

I would never want to run a UPS large enough to power a stereo or home theater.

Your series mode surge protector is enough. I hear you, but get control of the OCD....