Is ICONOCLAST cable a "better" cable?

[PierreV]

5. He decided, unfortunately without any controlled listening tests, that said parameters were equal capacitance and inductance. And travel velocity of all the frequencies in the wire. He has accomplished these (he says) and says this is his main pitch: not that he can prove any of this make sound better. In other words, he is selling optimized objective measures of cables for audio.

Many hurdles indeed.

The first one is "does the cable measure significantly better? If so, in which aspect?"
If and only if there is a positive answer then The second question is "is the difference actually audible?"
Assuming we have a positive answer for the second question, and that would be somewhat surprising by itself, we could move to the third question "is it actually better?" where the only test would be similar to the loudspeaker preference blind test.
We then, very hypothetically, would end up with something like
"among the subset of audiophiles who can reliably detect a difference, the preference goes to..."

Now, let us be generous and imagine the three questions above have received a conclusive answer and that the speaker cable manages to improve the preference rating of one speaker, where does that lead us? Not very far I am afraid.

If, for example, the cable brings so-so speakers closer to the Harman curve, what does it do to speakers that are already there? Degrade them?

Until a fancy cable manufacturer comes up with a serious controlled test (they are the only party who would benefit from one aren't they), there is just no point...

 

[mansr]

The first one is "does the cable measure significantly better? If so, in which aspect?"

Price, obviously. More is always better, right?

 

[Emlin]

The wire designer, though affable, uses a PS Audio DAC. I know, because I watched the whole video.

What does that say?

 

[mansr]

The wire designer, though affable

Go find the Audiophool Stool thread from a few years ago and see if you still think he's "affable."

 

[Emlin]

Go find the Audiophool Stool thread from a few years ago and see if you still think he's "affable."

I was only talking about this video. Got a link to the other?

He is a twat, either way

 

[Valhalla]

Do audio cables matter? | Galen Gareis formerly of Belden Wire

Former Belden Wire Designer Galen Gareis explains how cables need to meet certain standards and the design parameters around them. He also speaks about the actual science and the subjective side within HiFi audio. After many years of a business relationship with Blue Jeans Cable, he now leads the ICONOCLAST cable line.
LINK:

74 minutes of 99.99999% high purity snake oil BS.

 

[LumbermanSVO]

Because I’m up dating my studio and home system and looking at cables. A came across the video and found it interesting. I thought posting it would lead to some insight but was sadly mistaken. I should have just contacted Amrim privately for his thoughtful opinion I respect.

This thread would have gone much differently had you included that info in your first post.

 

[DonH56]

Subjectively we decide the intent of the OP without sufficient data to judge and then attack. Sad.

 

[mansr]

If you don't want to be taken for a duck, it is generally advisable to not look and quack like one.

 

[scott wurcer]

5. He decided, unfortunately without any controlled listening tests, that said parameters were equal capacitance and inductance. And travel velocity of all the frequencies in the wire. He has accomplished these (he says) and says this is his main pitch: not that he can prove any of this make sound better. In other words, he is selling optimized objective measures of cables for audio.

In what context are 45pF/ft. and 0.08uH/ft. equal? I see no basis for his hypothesis and have yet to see any evidence that lumping the R/L/C of a cable into a simple circuit model is insufficient for audio. I also hope the folks don't forget that some speakers have large dips in their impedance curves and that some cables could cause simple frequency response anomalies that are within accepted audibility limits via simple R/L/C filtering(EQ).

 

[mansr]

I was only talking about this video. Got a link to the other?

He is a twat, either way

Here you go: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/56060-ho-ho-ho-belden-and-blue-jeans-join-the-dark-side/

 

[TulseLuper]

Subjectively we decide the intent of the OP without sufficient data to judge and then attack. Sad.

Recent trigger-happy shill accusations are a very bad look. This is two in a week directed at new members who may have a lot to offer. Original posts might be mediocre or ignorant of tone and history on this forum, but that's no excuse for the hostility. To paraphrase ahofer: if they're trolling, shame on them, not you. Nothing bad can come from more welcoming and instructive replies, even if they are trolling.

 

[mhardy6647]

Recent trigger-happy shill accusations are a very bad look. This is two in a week directed at new members who may have a lot to offer. Original posts might be mediocre or ignorant of tone and history on this forum, but that's no excuse for the hostility. To paraphrase ahofer: if they're trolling, shame on them, not you. Nothing bad can come from more welcoming and instructive replies, even if they are trolling.

But, you've got to admit, this latest "new poster" got off to a kind of...rocky... start from the get-go.

I still have to bristle at the economics of this solution (i.e., the Iconoclast cables) to a problem that may or may not exist, particularly in terms of the loudspeaker cabling. Ironically, as overpriced as many of us see these cables; the aficionado market probably will snicker at, or just ignore, them because they're too inexpensive. They cannot be worthy of incusion in seven-figure audio systems.

In bioanalytical sciences, we have an interesting problem -- we can sensitively, accurately, and precisely measure all sorts of stuff that's not biologically important. Reacting appropriately to that is where art (and experience) meet science.
We also run into the elegant nonlinearity of biology; dose-response curves cover orders of magnitude, and (e.g.,) binding affinities of a receptor and its ligand(s) can vary over orders of magnitude as well -- and enzymatic amplification of a signal is the icing on the cake! A quantitatively extremely minor component may be the major player biologically.

This isn't as off-topic as it may seem (at least in my mind) -- here's the punchline: I don't think the transmission of low frequency AC signals on relatively short pieces of wire really "suffers" from any analogous complexities.

 

[Cuniberti]

You have passive speakers in a studio I thought active dominated the latest decades . Keep the speaker cables short have the power amp close, then you probably already have some speakerwire around somewhere that would fit with new clean termination.

You can look at the LCR parameters and for a very very long speaker cable you can reach audible limits , especially combined with some speakers with pathological design with impedance dips <1 ohm.
But with the prices suggested for the iconoclast you have financed the power amp by moving it closer to the speakers and then you don’t need an electrically “perfect” cable good enough is perfect then.
( reminds me of the old joke , why do British houses have the water pipes on the outside ? So that can be repaired when they freeze )

Many home audiophiles have these expensive kind of cables in 2-3 meter lengths ? Where the influence is very minimal.
Perplexing enough many audiophiles can only afford the short length

Many hurdles indeed.

The first one is "does the cable measure significantly better? If so, in which aspect?"
If and only if there is a positive answer then The second question is "is the difference actually audible?"
Assuming we have a positive answer for the second question, and that would be somewhat surprising by itself, we could move to the third question "is it actually better?" where the only test would be similar to the loudspeaker preference blind test.
We then, very hypothetically, would end up with something like
"among the subset of audiophiles who can reliably detect a difference, the preference goes to..."

Now, let us be generous and imagine the three questions above have received a conclusive answer and that the speaker cable manages to improve the preference rating of one speaker, where does that lead us? Not very far I am afraid.

If, for example, the cable brings so-so speakers closer to the Harman curve, what does it do to speakers that are already there? Degrade them?

Until a fancy cable manufacturer comes up with a serious controlled test (they are the only party who would benefit from one aren't they), there is just no point...

But, you've got to admit, this latest "new poster" got off to a kind of...rocky... start from the get-go.

True, I had no idea what I was walking into here. I have these discussions with my peers (other mastering engineers) all the time and we all respect each other's opinions but often disagree. I'm fine with that. I changed the heading of the thread today to calm down the more reactionary, shoot from the hip trolls. If that doesn't work I will ask for the thread to be deleted from the forum. There is a lot more information in the video that is well beyond the cable itself, that's what I hoped people would enjoy hearing. I don't buy snake-oil and I defiantly don't promote it but seems to be what is in question here and that makes it personal and beneath what I believe ASR is here for.

 

[PierreV]

I don't buy snake-oil and I defiantly don't promote it but seems to be what is in question here and that makes it personal and beneath what I believe ASR is here for.

Context is everything in this case I believe: firstly, because of the popularity of this site, it is not rare to see fresh accounts come here and promote, directly or indirectly, some less than stellar stuff in their first post. Secondly, cables. A double unfortunate strike.

Beyond that, very happy to have you here. (Hart's Planet Drum is in my favorite percussion album's list)

 

[HiFidFan]

I changed the heading of the thread today to calm down the more reactionary, shoot from the hip trolls.

 

[mansr]

True, I had no idea what I was walking into here.

A few things were working against you here. Firstly, that video has already been posted here half a dozen times in the past week. When I saw this thread, my first thought was "not again." The cables have been discussed even more times. That's not your fault, obviously, but it did set things up in a way not in your favour. Secondly, and this is your fault, the initial post in this thread (especially with the original title) made it look a lot like a sales pitch, especially since that was your first post at all on this forum. Then, when people asked a few questions, you responded evasively, mostly "wow" or "watch the video." Perhaps a natural reaction, but it did you no favours either.

Anyhow, now that it's been established that you're not a troll, we can hopefully put this unfortunate incident behind us.

 

[Cuniberti]

True, I had no idea what I was walking into here. I have these discussions with my peers (other mastering engineers) all the time and we all respect each other's opinions but often disagree. I'm fine with that. I changed the heading of the thread today to calm down the more reactionary, shoot from the hip trolls. If that doesn't work I will ask for the thread to be deleted from the forum. There is a lot more information in the video that is well beyond the cable itself, that's what I hoped people would enjoy hearing. I don't buy snake-oil and I defiantly don't promote it but seems to be what is in question here and that makes it personal and beneath what I believe ASR is here for.

A few things were working against you here. Firstly, that video has already been posted here half a dozen times in the past week. When I saw this thread, my first thought was "not again." The cables have been discussed even more times. That's not your fault, obviously, but it did set things up in a way not in your favour. Secondly, and this is your fault, the initial post in this thread (especially with the original title) made it look a lot like a sales pitch, especially since that was your first post at all on this forum. Then, when people asked a few questions, you responded evasively, mostly "wow" or "watch the video." Perhaps a natural reaction, but it did you no favours either.

Anyhow, now that it's been established that you're not a troll, we can hopefully put this unfortunate incident behind us.

Then, when people asked a few questions, you responded evasively, mostly "wow" or "watch the video."

My "wow" response was to the suggestion I was a shill. I'm not used to that in my circles. However, I will take responsibility for a less than-appropriate thread title for this forum and that's why I changed it.

 

[jtwrace]

Firstly, that video has already been posted here half a dozen times in the past week.

Really? I thought it was only posted twice.

 

[amirm]

It would have been useful if you'd given a brief summary of how this video is not a sales-pitch but an attempt to explain/unpack and even debunk.

This suggestion normally makes sense but not in this case. The explanation and video is so obtuse and at times technical and hardly anyone can summarize it. Even my summary may not have been full accurate and I watched that video after I watched a 3 hour one he gave at San Francisco audiophile society. A proper summary would have taken much more study of what he is saying.

Anyway, let's move on from OP being the topic. Discussion should be around the cable itself.