Ingredients of Good Sound

[Mean & Green]

I actually think that imaging is a great differentiator in speakers. What systems have you listened to in the past with good and average imaging? What are you listening to now?

When you go to a concert or musical, you get the wall of sound effect. Same with a movie. Lady Gaga’s voice is larger than life as is her appearance in close up when watching a Star is Born.

Many great speakers give you that diffuse imaging where you have a nice soundstage with phantom center and left and right instruments.

With some systems, you get the ability to point with your finger, exactly where the sound is coming from. The vocals don’t sound larger than life and can actually seem a bit thin, but instruments can appear in areas between phantom center and the left or right. It’s not three positions but perhaps a dozen that you can place precisely.

This, like 3D movies, is a pleasant experience when done properly and a jarring experience when done poorly. A very precise imaging system ends up making poorly mastered recordings sound unpleasant and disjointed whereas it will really help with the “you are there” experience. The recording matters.

Along the same lines, people talking about detail like hearing the rosin on the bow of stringed instruments or the wetting of a singer’s lips before the next word. I describe these as hyper real experience. You don’t hear that in real concerts but some people really like that experience of hyper clarity.

This is where speaker preference comes into play, yet backed by science. Dispersion, diffraction, room reflections, intermodulation etc. I would suggest that if you haven’t heard speaker imaging where you can “finger point” exactly where the sound is coming from (rather than a general area) or “finger point” at about a dozen points between your left and right speaker as opposed to 3 or 5 points, you just haven’t listened to enough systems. (And again, it may not be your preference to have that type of imaging).

This is different than a binaural recording played back on headphones. That gives you great “imaging” and ambience and there are some silly recordings like someone getting a hair cut recorded binaurally. With binaural recordings, I cannot *point* as well.

The Virtual Barber Shop: An Amazing Listening Experience

Welcome to the virtual barber shop where an amazing listening experience awaits!

www.all-about-psychology.com

Even for your own speakers, try toe-ing them to converge in front, at, and behind your listening position to get the sense of imaging.

Ignoring the sales pitches at the beginning and end of this video, Paul actually nails it when it comes to controlling reflections by speaker position in the room as the easiest way to manipulate imaging.

Someone else who miss understands what I’ve said.

To summarise at no point have I said my system isn’t capable of good imaging. I’ve said that in my opinion imaging is overhyped.

I have also said most audiophiles (and I’ll now go further and also include most subjective journalists) overstate imaging.

Since you are trying to educate me on my speaker placement because you have assumed I have no idea, I have two systems and in both setups my speakers are toed in thanks. I don’t need an education on speaker placement and I need even less of an education from Paul at PS Audio.

I don’t need to go over my entire listing history of the past 30 years to simply say that in my opinion imaging is overrated.

 

[GXAlan]

I’ve said that in my opinion imaging is overhyped.
…
I don’t need to go over my entire listing history of the past 30 years to simply say that in my opinion imaging is overrated.

It’s a reasonable opinion but you are more likely to find more discussion and agreement if you add “I have heard [this system] as my “reference, best possible imaging system” and was left unimpressed”. When you describe walking around a virtual image, it does come across as being more of someone new to the hobby.

It’s hard to gauge what your level of experience with speakers are. Just because someone has been driving 50 years doesn’t mean that they have driven race prepped track cars.

 

[Mean & Green]

It’s a reasonable opinion but you are more likely to find more discussion and agreement if you add “I have heard [this system] as my “reference, best possible imaging system” and was left unimpressed”. When you describe walking around a virtual image, it does come across as being more of someone new to the hobby.

It’s hard to gauge what your level of experience with speakers are. Just because someone has been driving 50 years doesn’t mean that they have driven race prepped track cars.

To be fair, I wasn’t looking for agreement or discussion on the subject. I originally responded to the OP regarding what they had mentioned regarding imaging.

I’m not trying to be funny here, words on a screen can be miss interpreted. However the only reason I’ve had to go to such elaborate and overly complicated ways of trying to explain my thoughts on imaging being overhyped on various posts within the thread is because of people who somehow assume I either haven‘t ever heard good sound, or I’m just plain wrong in my own subjective assessment of the subject, or the classic response from audiophiles - my system isn’t good enough. Everything I’ve tried to convey has been nitpicked and miss understood or just plain twisted.

I merely tried to point out to the OP that as far as I was concerned imaging is overrated. I agreed with about 95% of what they had to say in their initial post and was simply just agreeing with the post whilst adding my own thoughts on imaging as it seemed to be one issue they are not quite getting to grips with and I believe that to be because probably most of what ever they’ve heard or read about it is overly hyped.

 

[Mean & Green]

My system sometimes feels like a holodeck that changes the size shape and acoustics of the room

I have never, ever seen any audiophile claim the type of effect you are talking about.

Hmm…

 

[GXAlan]

people who somehow assume I either haven‘t ever heard good sound, or I’m just plain wrong in my own subjective assessment of the subject, or the classic response from audiophiles - my system isn’t good enough. Everything I’ve tried to convey has been nitpicked and miss understood or just plain twisted.

I merely tried to point out to the OP that as far as I was concerned imaging is overrated. I agreed with about 95% of what they had to say in their initial post and was simply just agreeing with the post whilst adding my own thoughts on imaging as it seemed to be one issue they are not quite getting to grips with and I believe that to be because probably most of what ever they’ve heard or read about it is overly hyped.

I understand your point. The classic response for audiophiles is often because we ourselves have encountered similar issues. I am genuinely curious what you considered the best imaging setup to date (even one you didn't own).

See this post:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-end-game-speaker.38378/page-50#post-1447389
and this person's response
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...st-for-my-end-game-speaker.38378/post-1455374

I always thought the House of Flying Daggers CD soundtrack was a bad mix and believed so for almost 20 years. Then it turned out that better speakers could actually do a better job at making the two-channel CD match the 5.1 experience.

 

[MattHooper]

Hmm…

Did you forget that I was responding to your description: "If it were real precision or if it was really what I would call pin sharp you could walk up to each instrument as it was playing and hear each one right in your face individually within it‘s own space."

When I wrote: "My system sometimes feels like a holodeck that changes the size shape and acoustics of the room" that was obviously the stereo illusion presented from the listening position. I can't just leave that position and walk up to each sound as if it's hanging in the air "in it's own space" irrespective of how the stereo illusion actually works.

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[Mean & Green]

Did you forget that I was responding to your description: "If it were real precision or if it was really what I would call pin sharp you could walk up to each instrument as it was playing and hear each one right in your face individually within it‘s own space."

When I wrote: "My system sometimes feels like a holodeck that changes the size shape and acoustics of the room" that was obviously the stereo illusion presented from the listening position. I can't just leave that position and walk up to each sound as if it's hanging in the air "in it's own space" irrespective of how the stereo illusion actually works.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Probably the same reason why it’s so hard for you to understand anything I’ve said.

Your quote of your system feeling like a ‘holodeck‘ and being able to defy the laws of physics from your listening position is exactly the type of overhyped audiophiliea I’ve been talking about. Yet you personally deny any such knowledge of such subjective hyperbole within this subject by saying you‘ve never seen any audiophiles making such claims - yet in this same thread you’ve given a perfect example of it yourself.

Is it not clear that my very extreme and impossible example of what true holographic imaging would be was to simply make you understand what the hell I’d consider ‘pin point’ or in your words ‘precise‘ imaging to be? Because me just saying ‘I think imaging is overrated‘ or ‘I don’t consider it to be pin point accurate‘ somehow needs to be dissected and simple language like ‘pin sharp’ really needs to be broken down and explained by text into the most simplistic way I could think of to try getting through what I was saying.

The sense of space, depth, central vocals and panning of sounds from left to right is not what I consider precise. I consider it a reasonable stab of an illusion and nothing more. I don’t wet my pants over it because it isn’t anything like this prefect room bending hologram audiophiles say it is. Then when we have to take our listening environments into account which has more influence on what we perceive than anything else. The whole bending the laws of physics and having holodecks just doesn’t wash with me.

 

[MattHooper]

Probably the same reason why it’s so hard for you to understand anything I’ve said.

Because you aren't following the bouncing ball in terms of the conversation and what I'm responding to.

I'm being very precise in what I'm responding to, but you are mashing together different claims.

I responded specifically to your claim about the type of impossible imaging available in stereo - it is the case I have never seen an audiophile make such a claim, for the very good reason it is essentially impossible and everyone knows it. And you have said this was an example of the "pin point imaging" you were talking about.

So nobody is using THAT claim to "overhype" the imaging characteristics of stereo. It's a total strawman.

Now if you want to talk about the actual imaging characteristics POSSIBLE within the stereo illusion (from the right listening position) THEN that's another conversation. And I've already addressed what "pin point" or "precise" imaging might constitute in that regard, with examples I gave.

Your quote of your system feeling like a ‘holodeck‘ and being able to defy the laws of physics from your listening position is exactly the type of overhyped audiophiliea I’ve been talking about.

You seem to have a problem with descriptive language. Do you generally take things so literally?

The "holodeck" was an analogy. It had nothing to do with implying the sound from my system defied the laws of physics. Have you ever tried listening to a binaural recording via headphones? It can give the sensation of the environment changing around you. Not TOTALLY with absolute "Star Trek Level Realism"...but it can mimic different acoustic spaces.

Similarly, when I set up my speakers so that I'm at a fairly close listening distance, and I have cut down on certain room reflections and added others, the recorded acoustic - and/or added reverbs and stereo effects - comes through very clearly and dominates the sensation of the space behind the speakers.
If I play a recording with a very dry acoustic and closely recorded individual instrument, that's very much what the acoustic "space" will sound like behind the speakers. If I follow that with a large orchestral piece recorded in a large space where those acoustics have been captured (or added) THAT is how the acoustic space will sound beyond the speakers. The sensation of imaging, spatial relationships, and acoustic space will alter and shape-shift.

That is precisely what you would EXPECT of a stereo illusion if you have it dialed in well. This is not sci-fi or "hype." It's just trying to use analogies for the effect.

The sense of space, depth, central vocals and panning of sounds from left to right is not what I consider precise. I consider it a reasonable stab of an illusion and nothing more. I don’t wet my pants over it because it isn’t anything like this prefect room bending hologram audiophiles say it is. Then when we have to take our listening environments into account which has more influence on what we perceive than anything else. The whole bending the laws of physics and having holodecks just doesn’t wash with me.

Maybe the stereo illusion just isn't for you..or since you are despairing of it's worth, you haven't put much effort in to realizing what can be achieved.
My condolences for not experiencing any of what I have described. That's a bummer because it can be really engaging. But to each his own.

 

[zajogungster]

Probably the same reason why it’s so hard for you to understand anything I’ve said.

Your quote of your system feeling like a ‘holodeck‘ and being able to defy the laws of physics from your listening position is exactly the type of overhyped audiophiliea I’ve been talking about. Yet you personally deny any such knowledge of such subjective hyperbole within this subject by saying you‘ve never seen any audiophiles making such claims - yet in this same thread you’ve given a perfect example of it yourself.

Nie je jasné, že mojím veľmi extrémnym a nemožným príkladom toho, čo by bolo skutočné holografické zobrazovanie, bolo, aby ste jednoducho pochopili, čo by som do pekla považoval za „presné“ alebo vašimi slovami „presné“ zobrazenie? Pretože to, čo hovorím „Myslím si, že zobrazovanie je preceňované“ alebo „Nepovažujem ho za úplne presné“, je potrebné nejako rozobrať a jednoduchý jazyk, ako je „ostrý špendlík“, skutočne treba rozobrať a vysvetliť textom. Najjednoduchší spôsob, aký som si mohol predstaviť, aby som sa pokúsil dostať cez to, čo som hovoril.

Zmysel pre priestor, hĺbku, centrálne vokály a posúvanie zvukov zľava doprava nie je to, čo považujem za presné. Považujem to za rozumné bodnutie ilúzie a nič viac. Nenamáčam si cez to nohavice, pretože to nie je nič také, ako to hovoria audiofili s ohýbaním hologramov v dokonalej miestnosti. Potom, keď musíme vziať do úvahy naše prostredie počúvania, ktoré má väčší vplyv na to, čo vnímame, ako čokoľvek iné. Celé ohýbanie fyzikálnych zákonov a holopaluby so mnou jednoducho nejdú.

Probably the same reason why it’s so hard for you to understand anything I’ve said.

Your quote of your system feeling like a ‘holodeck‘ and being able to defy the laws of physics from your listening position is exactly the type of overhyped audiophiliea I’ve been talking about. Yet you personally deny any such knowledge of such subjective hyperbole within this subject by saying you‘ve never seen any audiophiles making such claims - yet in this same thread you’ve given a perfect example of it yourself.

Is it not clear that my very extreme and impossible example of what true holographic imaging would be was to simply make you understand what the hell I’d consider ‘pin point’ or in your words ‘precise‘ imaging to be? Because me just saying ‘I think imaging is overrated‘ or ‘I don’t consider it to be pin point accurate‘ somehow needs to be dissected and simple language like ‘pin sharp’ really needs to be broken down and explained by text into the most simplistic way I could think of to try getting through what I was saying.

The sense of space, depth, central vocals and panning of sounds from left to right is not what I consider precise. I consider it a reasonable stab of an illusion and nothing more. I don’t wet my pants over it because it isn’t anything like this prefect room bending hologram audiophiles say it is. Then when we have to take our listening environments into account which has more influence on what we perceive than anything else. The whole bending the laws of physics and having holodecks just doesn’t wash with me.

you like to believe in your own truth and illusion. if something annoys you, that's ok. but why so much confusion and conflicting thoughts. Everyone here has similar experiences and a piece of truth. The basis of this discussion somehow loses its meaning. Even if everyone heard the same thing on the same audio system, everyone's perception of space will be different. Or do you want to measure the illusion?

 

[Mean & Green]

Because you aren't following the bouncing ball in terms of the conversation and what I'm responding to.

I'm being very precise in what I'm responding to, but you are mashing together different claims.

You seem to have a problem with descriptive language. Do you generally take things so literally?

Are you the pot or the kettle?

The "holodeck" was an analogy. It had nothing to do with implying the sound from my system defied the laws of physics.

Ok so you say it’s an analogy, when you said your system changes the acoustics of your room like a holodeck, maybe so. I say it’s an over the top play on words and not an accurate description. Which has been my point all along.

It’s such analogies which over play what imaging is IMO. I’ll stress that in my opinion.

I don’t have a problem with such hyperbole, i just think it’s over the top. I initially only expressed my own thoughts to the OP, that I think imaging is overrated. You have taken some kind of offence to that it seems and have felt the need to try and educate me.

 

[Mean & Green]

you like to believe in your own truth and illusion. if something annoys you, that's ok. but why so much confusion and conflicting thoughts. Everyone here has similar experiences and a piece of truth. The basis of this discussion somehow loses its meaning. Even if everyone heard the same thing on the same audio system, everyone's perception of space will be different. Or do you want to measure the illusion?

Not annoyed in the slightest. It seems to me that everyone else is because I made one comment and said imaging is overrated in my opinion.

There is no confusion or confliction, just an attempt at trying to justify said opinion because others (not me) have latched onto it.

 

[Mean & Green]

I understand your point. The classic response for audiophiles is often because we ourselves have encountered similar issues. I am genuinely curious what you considered the best imaging setup to date (even one you didn't own).

See this post:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-end-game-speaker.38378/page-50#post-1447389
and this person's response
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...st-for-my-end-game-speaker.38378/post-1455374

I always thought the House of Flying Daggers CD soundtrack was a bad mix and believed so for almost 20 years. Then it turned out that better speakers could actually do a better job at making the two-channel CD match the 5.1 experience.

Thanks I’ll check those links out when I get a chance.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I think the way some audiophiles articulate sound is to do so by overhyping it and making small details and subtle qualities out to be much bigger and much more important than they really are

I am with you on this, not just about imaging. For some reason, a lot of the "audiophile" comments are totally overblown, from the night and day difference on some gears to the veil lifting effect of other gears.

Many times, we waste precious energy trying to pursuit some audio trickery, just because an over enthusiastic audiophile claim some impossible feat that we feel the urge to experience our self. Often it is about "snake oil" but also it can be real but just grossly exaggerated.

You mention the impossibility being able to walk to where the sound seems to be emanating from when listening to a well positioned stereo system, even though, I felt like I could in some occasion, with the right recording, when the illusion is so compelling, but no need to get up, just moving the head to the side a few centimeters will suffice to break the illusion.

 

[zajogungster]

I am with you on this, not just about imaging. For some reason, a lot of the "audiophile" comments are totally overblown, from the night and day difference on some gears to the veil lifting effect of other gears.

Many times, we waste precious energy trying to pursuit some audio trickery, just because an over enthusiastic audiophile claim some impossible feat that we feel the urge to experience our self. Often it is about "snake oil" but also it can be real but just grossly exaggerated.

You mention the impossibility being able to walk to where the sound seems to be emanating from when listening to a well positioned stereo system, even though, I felt like I could in some occasion, with the right recording, when the illusion is so compelling, but no need to get up, just moving the head to the side a few centimeters will suffice to break the illusion.

but really in the evening the electricity in the socket is kind of calmer, softer and even a worse singer, he suddenly catches a second breath and gets closer to the listener just add a few % Alk. plus a few % volume and everything really becomes more tangible!

 

[Mean & Green]

I am with you on this, not just about imaging. For some reason, a lot of the "audiophile" comments are totally overblown, from the night and day difference on some gears to the veil lifting effect of other gears.

Many times, we waste precious energy trying to pursuit some audio trickery, just because an over enthusiastic audiophile claim some impossible feat that we feel the urge to experience our self. Often it is about "snake oil" but also it can be real but just grossly exaggerated.

You mention the impossibility being able to walk to where the sound seems to be emanating from when listening to a well positioned stereo system, even though, I felt like I could in some occasion, with the right recording, when the illusion is so compelling, but no need to get up, just moving the head to the side a few centimeters will suffice to break the illusion.

Thank you, I appreciate you getting the gist of what I’ve said without feeling the need to nitpick.

I agree with you, that yes just moving your head by a small amount can very much break the illusion. Also yes what I’ve been saying can also apply to other topics where audiophiles can and do make mountains out of molehills.

 

[zajogungster]

Thank you, I appreciate you getting the gist of what I’ve said without feeling the need to nitpick.

I agree with you, that yes just moving your head by a small amount can very much break the illusion. Also yes what I’ve been saying can also apply to other topics where audiophiles can and do make mountains out of molehills.

who are "those" audiophiles and what do you think they are really about?

 

[Thomas_A]

I’ll put it this way...

The next time you hear a vocal between and behind your speakers, move from your sweet spot and stand or sit with your head 6” or 12” from one either one of your speakers and listen to where are the vocals are then. I’d imagine that they are coming straight out of your speaker.

If I move to sit with the left speaker right in front of me, the centre phantom vocal still comes from the centre, and not from the left speaker. I did a binaural recording to demonstrate that.

 

[GXAlan]

If I move to sit with the left speaker right in front of me, the centre phantom vocal still comes from the centre, and not from the left speaker. I did a binaural recording to demonstrate that.

That is only for your DIY setup right? I have gone with the JBL S/2600 with asymmetrical horns (and all of the limitations associated with that when the frequency distribution is inconsistent) to try the wider center image.

 

[Thomas_A]

That is only for your DIY setup right? I have gone with the JBL S/2600 with asymmetrical horns (and all of the limitations associated with that when the frequency distribution is inconsistent) to try the wider center image.

View attachment 261811

Yes, it is specific for my setup at home. If I move closer the left speaker reveals itself, but at the sofa position if moves to the center. I do have almost 45° toe-in, but the speakers are also wide dispersing.

 

[TimF]

This is it. The perfect sound. If you don't think it's the perfect sound then find your own perfect sound. Don't give up on it too quick. It grows on you.