• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

In search for the right parts

Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
#1
Dear community,

I would like to first say thank you, specially to amir for that outstanding reviews you create. Those deliver a lot of value and help to get rid of that audiophile overpriced bullshit equipment.

I have some questions regarding my current setup:
Speakers are Quadral Aurum Orkan 9
AV Receiver is Denon X3500h.

I only use it in stereo mode for listening to music via Tidal and spotify or using my Android tv box and watching some movies here and then. I dont have any 5.1 setup.
I think the integrated Audyssey room correction brought added a lot of value to my setup.

I would like to improve my setup therefore I have some questions/need recommendations where you may be able to help.

1) my Denon should deliver 150w but as my Speakers could take 200/350W I'm not sure If I would have any benefit besides loudness if I buy an stronger amplifier. Some sources say I would hear a difference some say it's only told to sell overpriced and overpowered HiFi equipment, such high watts arent ever used anyway. What is the truth now?
Btw I use sometimes volume 65 on my denon 95 is the highest.

2) I could just use an external dac like topping e30 to improve sound quality, but I'm not sure if its noticeable. Is it?

3) replace the AVR with some new one from Advance Paris A10 Classic. It has an good Dac Chip with 110db dynamic range. That should be enough right? Better should be inaudible? Also the amp has some tube preamp which I would love to try out. If I take that Amp I would for sure need an minidsp for room correction.
Some specs: 190w - 4ohm. Class AB, switchable to only A. Tube preamp.
2 Hdmi Ports, which is not much I think.
A lot of Optical out ports.

A different model with the same specs is available which has no hdmi ports but has an streamer builtin also CD. I dont really need the streamer as I have an android tv box.


4) I take 2 mono amp blocks like Hypex and use them with some dac. If that would bring me some hearable difference I would consider doing that as well.

Guys you see I need help :), I appreciate your opinions.

Please find below some more specs from the speakers.
Type
3-way

Principle
Bassreflex

Nominal/music power (W)
200/350 W

Frequency response (Hz)
29…65.000 Hz

Crossover frequency (Hz)
260/3.700 Hz

Efficiency (dB/1W/1m)
87 dB

Impedance (Ohm)
4

Tweeter
quadral quSENSE® 50mm aluminium ribbon

Midrange
155 mm Ø quadral ALTIMA®

Woofer
2x 180 mm Ø quadral ALTIMA®

Size (w x h x d) in cm
103 x 22 x 36 cm

Weight in kg
29,1 kg
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
1,258
Likes
1,444
Location
Michigan
#2
Option 4 would give the biggest improvement among these options. You would get enough SINAD to hear in theory, though it would be very hard to hear the difference. Something like Hypex MC400 modules would also give you more headroom, which might do something good that is audible. If you have never had the volume on the Denon above 2 O'Clock, then it will be hard to hear any benefit here either. However, if amp power does make a difference in sound, it can be significantly more substantial than improving the SINAD of your current comversion and amplification.
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #3
Option 4 would give the biggest improvement among these options. You would get enough SINAD to hear in theory, though it would be very hard to hear the difference. Something like Hypex MC400 modules would also give you more headroom, which might do something good that is audible. If you have never had the volume on the Denon above 2 O'Clock, then it will be hard to hear any benefit here either. However, if amp power does make a difference in sound, it can be significantly more substantial than improving the SINAD of your current comversion and amplification.
Thanks for your reply. I sometimes listen to the Denon at 65% volume of what's it's capable. But most of the time 50%, therefore I question if it's audible. Wdym with 2 o'clock, 1/4?
So you say that the Dac of the denon is good enough and an upgrade would ne inaudible do i get you right?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3500h-avr-review.10053/
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
1,258
Likes
1,444
Location
Michigan
#4
Thanks for your reply. I sometimes listen to the Denon at 65% volume of what's it's capable. But most of the time 50%, therefore I question if it's audible. Wdym with 2 o'clock, 1/4?
So you say that the Dac of the denon is good enough and an upgrade would ne inaudible do i get you right?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3500h-avr-review.10053/
65% volume is not 65% of available power, because the scale is logarithmic. You probably already have pleanty of headroom.

The DAC in the Denon is pretty bad compared to other DACs. It adds a lot of distortion. But your speakers are probably adding enough additional distortion to mask 90% of it, maybe more.

A topping DAC is far better, and Hypex amps are far better. It just might be hard to hear the improvement because the vast majority of distortion in a system that is not broken comes from the speakers.

You will get an improvement within the threshold of audibility still, which is better than a lot of upgrades people do, myself included.

I don't want to make a recommendation, because you need to decide if it is worth it. Best case, you might see a 10 percent improvement. I would gladly spend $600 to $1200 for that, FWIW. I have spent on lots of stuff with a lower return than that.

Also, for transparency, option 4 is pretty SOTA performance relative to everything ever produced for DACs and amps
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
41
Likes
130
#5
I would go with Option 5,

Add a few subwoofers, do proper bass management and then re-evaluate your goals. Your Denon has the ability so adding two subs (or more) will get lower distortion in the bass response, fix the response in your room and take quite the load off the Denon when listening to bass heavy material. After all, generally speaking the lowest impedance from your speakers is typically in the bass department along with the highest distortion. Not only will you increase sound quality with properly done subwoofers but taking the load off the Denon's power supply is an added bonus! :)

You never stated what music you listen to--these days most people will throw all sorts of things through their audio system be it TV shows, sports, Youtube videos, movies and so on. I pipe quite a few channels from Youtube though my system, entertaining to hear what kind of bass chaos they throw in there.

The big thing with any audio system is the room location. Sure, I would like to think I need a Benchmark to get my background noise level down but my room allows HVAC noise, traffic driving by noise and I can hear strong winds and rain in my living room. Needless to say, I don't need triple digits in my specs because my living room does not mimic an underground bunker. :( To actually require my AVR DAC to do anything past the middle, I really need to rebuild my house, get acoustic panels done and make the living room look like a combination studio and nuclear fallout bunker. No worries, if I did that my wife would get all my audio gear in the divorce and burn it so either way it won't happen.

For some odd reason, plenty of people want to "upgrade" by changing boxes be it amplifiers, DACs or costly sources and ignore the elephant in the room--the actual room! Throw in having 2 speakers, going with active subwoofers and getting the bass response correct is the next logical step. Of course, this can lead down the rabbit hole of measuring things, moving things around, learning and correcting room acoustics issues and so on... much, much easier to throw a new box in to "improve" things. Room acoustics, speakers, subwoofers, EQ, bass management, proper setup of the speakers and all that jazz is not easy, requires time and effort to do properly and is a pain in the butt--cost some bucks to do properly.

So, box swapping should be done AFTER you get the room, setup, calibration for bass management and speakers completed. To get an idea, just simply look at the distortion graphs on speakers--then look at the distortion with subs (data-bass.com tests dozens of subs to get an idea) Compare the two--ahhhh! :) Now look at the insanely low DAC numbers...the ones with a bunch of zeros in them. Now look at the very, very high distortion from speakers--fix the big problems first. If your speakers are putting out 3% distortion at the sound level you listen to them--do you honestly think changing an amp that has 0.05% distortion to one that has 0.01% distortion at your listening levels will make any difference? If the amp you are using is not clipping, being overdriven in daily use and has never thermal overloaded or engaged the protection devices--why would adding more power that you won't use be "better"? If for some reason it did do anything, I'd say those PowerSoft stadium amps at 10,000+ watts per channel would be big sellers!

I spec'd out a basic 5.1 system for an audiophile type friend of mine. He has fully horn loaded speakers at 103dB 1w/1m at 8 to 16 ohms. He followed my advice, an AVR with pre-amp outs and then pondered more powah! No point in explaining reality to the audiophile types, so I brought over a studio amp with 120 watts per channel but had extensive output meters to view. Attached it to the pre-amp outs and he was able to see what power was used in real time. Needless to say, for the most part he never got over 10 watts ever. I cranked it up to 60 watt peaks and it ran him out of the room! He then was able to understand the concept without me uttering a word. So I disconnected my studio amp and he had an old amp laying around (80 watts per channel?) but it had clip lights as all decent amps do. He ran it that way for a few months, the clip lights never engaged so he removed it from the system.

If your AVR has pre-amp outs, you can rent amplifiers from professional sound rental places and wire it in. Make sure you get the amplifiers that have output lights or the ones that you can monitor amplifier functions through USB connections. If you like, put the amplifier output waves etc. on your TV to really geek out--why not? This way you know EXACTLY what you use in your room, with your sources with your tastes and crank it up! Might cost you $40 or so for a weekend but at least you will know--gaining real world knowledge of your system is never a bad thing. Never know, you might actually be using more than 50 watts or on occasion clipping the AVR amps without your knowledge.

Other suggestions in your quest for improved sound is to learn about room acoustics, how speakers work, the relationship between power and SPL and the very strict limits of human hearing. Many electronics far exceed human hearing abilities so chasing specifications without knowing what they mean or if it applies in your case is just throwing money, time and effort away. I don't know about you but I have other things to do with my money besides audio equipment, plenty of cool tools, home improvements, car modifications and world travel to spend money on--but that is just me. Your mileage will vary but I do know this--the way you worded the question indicates it is time to take "the next step" That step is to dig a little deeper in your goofy, quirky odd-duck hobby of audio and peak behind the curtain. Throwing money at the problem only works for the government so the rest of us has to learn the game. Floyd Toole penned an excellent book on that very topic, a good place to start. There is additional information at the Audio Engineering Society, data-bass.com and this forum under psychoacoustics.

Enjoy the read and good luck in your quest. :D
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #6
I would go with Option 5,

Add a few subwoofers, do proper bass management and then re-evaluate your goals. Your Denon has the ability so adding two subs (or more) will get lower distortion in the bass response, fix the response in your room and take quite the load off the Denon when listening to bass heavy material. After all, generally speaking the lowest impedance from your speakers is typically in the bass department along with the highest distortion. Not only will you increase sound quality with properly done subwoofers but taking the load off the Denon's power supply is an added bonus! :)

You never stated what music you listen to--these days most people will throw all sorts of things through their audio system be it TV shows, sports, Youtube videos, movies and so on. I pipe quite a few channels from Youtube though my system, entertaining to hear what kind of bass chaos they throw in there.

The big thing with any audio system is the room location. Sure, I would like to think I need a Benchmark to get my background noise level down but my room allows HVAC noise, traffic driving by noise and I can hear strong winds and rain in my living room. Needless to say, I don't need triple digits in my specs because my living room does not mimic an underground bunker. :( To actually require my AVR DAC to do anything past the middle, I really need to rebuild my house, get acoustic panels done and make the living room look like a combination studio and nuclear fallout bunker. No worries, if I did that my wife would get all my audio gear in the divorce and burn it so either way it won't happen.

For some odd reason, plenty of people want to "upgrade" by changing boxes be it amplifiers, DACs or costly sources and ignore the elephant in the room--the actual room! Throw in having 2 speakers, going with active subwoofers and getting the bass response correct is the next logical step. Of course, this can lead down the rabbit hole of measuring things, moving things around, learning and correcting room acoustics issues and so on... much, much easier to throw a new box in to "improve" things. Room acoustics, speakers, subwoofers, EQ, bass management, proper setup of the speakers and all that jazz is not easy, requires time and effort to do properly and is a pain in the butt--cost some bucks to do properly.

So, box swapping should be done AFTER you get the room, setup, calibration for bass management and speakers completed. To get an idea, just simply look at the distortion graphs on speakers--then look at the distortion with subs (data-bass.com tests dozens of subs to get an idea) Compare the two--ahhhh! :) Now look at the insanely low DAC numbers...the ones with a bunch of zeros in them. Now look at the very, very high distortion from speakers--fix the big problems first. If your speakers are putting out 3% distortion at the sound level you listen to them--do you honestly think changing an amp that has 0.05% distortion to one that has 0.01% distortion at your listening levels will make any difference? If the amp you are using is not clipping, being overdriven in daily use and has never thermal overloaded or engaged the protection devices--why would adding more power that you won't use be "better"? If for some reason it did do anything, I'd say those PowerSoft stadium amps at 10,000+ watts per channel would be big sellers!

I spec'd out a basic 5.1 system for an audiophile type friend of mine. He has fully horn loaded speakers at 103dB 1w/1m at 8 to 16 ohms. He followed my advice, an AVR with pre-amp outs and then pondered more powah! No point in explaining reality to the audiophile types, so I brought over a studio amp with 120 watts per channel but had extensive output meters to view. Attached it to the pre-amp outs and he was able to see what power was used in real time. Needless to say, for the most part he never got over 10 watts ever. I cranked it up to 60 watt peaks and it ran him out of the room! He then was able to understand the concept without me uttering a word. So I disconnected my studio amp and he had an old amp laying around (80 watts per channel?) but it had clip lights as all decent amps do. He ran it that way for a few months, the clip lights never engaged so he removed it from the system.

If your AVR has pre-amp outs, you can rent amplifiers from professional sound rental places and wire it in. Make sure you get the amplifiers that have output lights or the ones that you can monitor amplifier functions through USB connections. If you like, put the amplifier output waves etc. on your TV to really geek out--why not? This way you know EXACTLY what you use in your room, with your sources with your tastes and crank it up! Might cost you $40 or so for a weekend but at least you will know--gaining real world knowledge of your system is never a bad thing. Never know, you might actually be using more than 50 watts or on occasion clipping the AVR amps without your knowledge.

Other suggestions in your quest for improved sound is to learn about room acoustics, how speakers work, the relationship between power and SPL and the very strict limits of human hearing. Many electronics far exceed human hearing abilities so chasing specifications without knowing what they mean or if it applies in your case is just throwing money, time and effort away. I don't know about you but I have other things to do with my money besides audio equipment, plenty of cool tools, home improvements, car modifications and world travel to spend money on--but that is just me. Your mileage will vary but I do know this--the way you worded the question indicates it is time to take "the next step" That step is to dig a little deeper in your goofy, quirky odd-duck hobby of audio and peak behind the curtain. Throwing money at the problem only works for the government so the rest of us has to learn the game. Floyd Toole penned an excellent book on that very topic, a good place to start. There is additional information at the Audio Engineering Society, data-bass.com and this forum under psychoacoustics.

Enjoy the read and good luck in your quest. :D
Wow that is an outstanding post you made there. This where exactly what I needed.
I agree with the room correction, I was going this path some time ago and then lost track of it. Thank you to leading me into the right way again!
You confirmed what I read that more watts and different Dacs dont make much improvements, it's the room what is crucial.
Btw there is a german side which exactly states that its around since a long time and some believe what its written there some not. But it exactly matches what you say and is totally logical to me.

I already thought about Basstraps but the founder of the website told me that its hard to achieve your goals with those traps. He said use Room EQ. Also he wrote about aktive bass canceling which is also super interesting.

As you say I should add some subwoofers I wonder if they are only beneficials cause of the direction of the sound and case resonations. My Orkan speakers are well known for one of the best bass out there, my room is already exploding with them inside. Are you recommending the subwoofers to lower the room modes?

I will attach an picture of my speaker location unfortunately I cant really make it better and I would know where to place an subwoofer. Dont you think subwoofers would disturb the soundstage?

Thank you so much

Attached picture is from my listening position
Attached some measurements which I found in the web. Can also upload mine from Audyssey.
Btw, I listen to Mainstream music, also 80,90s, Classic Rock, Electro, Pop, Rock, so mostly anything
 

Attachments

Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
41
Likes
130
#7
Thanks for the pictures and measurements!

Your room really puts the ass in bass don't it. Peaks, nulls and all sorts of acoustic chaos. The only thing I see in that room that absorbs sound reflections is the potted plants :D Hard glass on one side with the speaker close to that boundry, a solid wall on the other side further away to really make the reflections completely different then throw in hardwood floors and a smooth ceiling--awesome if you want to build an echo chamber but not so good for clarity.

First things first, your bass response gets crazy below around 140Hz--subwoofers will help there considering you have limited space to put the mains. Your room nodes very quite a bit so start off with a pair of them, move them around diagonally from each other, heck raise them off the floor, go mid-wall and that sort of thing. You will still have the peak/dips from 80Hz to around 140Hz from the mains--you really can't absorb bass with frequencies that long so maybe flipping the room or putting the speakers in the back firing at the front would work better? Having the speakers that close together facing forward with no toe in makes a mess of things so maybe in the back of the room with more speaker seperation will work better?

Yes, I would get at least a rug to place in front of the speakers to help with absorbing some of the floor reflections. Maybe get some acoustically absorbent curtains for part of the windows--at leas the first reflection points should clean things up a bit. You can also build acoustic panels for the left side of the room, basically they are a wood frame around 10cm deep with a 5cm thick chunk of acoustic fiberglass inside and you stretch acoustic cloth over them--you can have things printed on acoustic cloth like movie posters, pictures of the dog or whatever you please. They look like really thick posters--all depends on how far you wish to go.

To answer your question, yes...I would use subwoofers to smooth out the bass response in your room. You have a peak 13dB hotter at around 34Hz VS a null at 40Hz and you can't EQ out nulls. You can cut out the peaks with EQ so the two or three subwoofers would fill in the nulls and considering your room is not studio grade--they can smooth that bass response out for you. Forget about bass traps in a room in that configuration, thy would have to be very large to absorb bass and you don't have the space. My system is in a living room, it teaches me to be a realist as heart because I don't have other options. :( I use rugs, waveguides for mid/treble to limit vertical dispersion and proper toe in to get me there. My subwoofers are end tables and I use three of them to get reasonable response--well, I did but now it is time to reconfigure the living room so I have to do it again. Such is life when you have other humans in a shared space--even the dogs take my wife's side.

To assist you with subwoofers, go to www.data-bass.com and they have plenty of information contained there. Plenty of charts, graphs, distortion analysis, SPL, power compression and all the cool things that are bass related. All sorts of educational pages also, give you clarity to know what you need, how to set it up properly and your options before laying down the wallet. Be aware the guy is quite the nut, he uses a 20,000 watt stadium amp to test things and builds massive subwoofers to pressurize an entire wharehouse on the weekend for EDM dance music. If you decide to build a few ZOD subwoofers that he designed, it will help you with the mains because it will blow the glass out of the building. Still, they have charts to help you get whatever SPL, frequency response, distortion limits and so on that you desire--a great resource.

So think positive, with that room and the frequency response you have achieved--no worries about amps and DACs, right? Some acoustic curtains over the windows--at least the first 3 meters and a rug will help you by many orders of magnitude than even the best Benchmark studio amps and DACs ever could. Throw in some subs, determine that by using data-bass.com, get some bass management action going on and have fun with it. I'd bet two or three small sealed 12's could get you there as long as you don't need rockstar mode or actual war volume. Sealed subs are easier to EQ and integrate and being much smaller, allows more flexibility over other alignments. I use ported myself, I had to make furniture out of subs to sneak them into the living room--the chess game turned out that way. I also like pipe organs and movies--and post on audio forums for fun so keep that in mind. ;)

Hope that helps and good luck in your quest to get smooth response in your room. Extra bonus, some subwoofers when coupled with OCD does improve your workout! Enjoy
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #8
Thanks for the pictures and measurements!

Your room really puts the ass in bass don't it. Peaks, nulls and all sorts of acoustic chaos. The only thing I see in that room that absorbs sound reflections is the potted plants :D Hard glass on one side with the speaker close to that boundry, a solid wall on the other side further away to really make the reflections completely different then throw in hardwood floors and a smooth ceiling--awesome if you want to build an echo chamber but not so good for clarity.

First things first, your bass response gets crazy below around 140Hz--subwoofers will help there considering you have limited space to put the mains. Your room nodes very quite a bit so start off with a pair of them, move them around diagonally from each other, heck raise them off the floor, go mid-wall and that sort of thing. You will still have the peak/dips from 80Hz to around 140Hz from the mains--you really can't absorb bass with frequencies that long so maybe flipping the room or putting the speakers in the back firing at the front would work better? Having the speakers that close together facing forward with no toe in makes a mess of things so maybe in the back of the room with more speaker seperation will work better?

Yes, I would get at least a rug to place in front of the speakers to help with absorbing some of the floor reflections. Maybe get some acoustically absorbent curtains for part of the windows--at leas the first reflection points should clean things up a bit. You can also build acoustic panels for the left side of the room, basically they are a wood frame around 10cm deep with a 5cm thick chunk of acoustic fiberglass inside and you stretch acoustic cloth over them--you can have things printed on acoustic cloth like movie posters, pictures of the dog or whatever you please. They look like really thick posters--all depends on how far you wish to go.

To answer your question, yes...I would use subwoofers to smooth out the bass response in your room. You have a peak 13dB hotter at around 34Hz VS a null at 40Hz and you can't EQ out nulls. You can cut out the peaks with EQ so the two or three subwoofers would fill in the nulls and considering your room is not studio grade--they can smooth that bass response out for you. Forget about bass traps in a room in that configuration, thy would have to be very large to absorb bass and you don't have the space. My system is in a living room, it teaches me to be a realist as heart because I don't have other options. :( I use rugs, waveguides for mid/treble to limit vertical dispersion and proper toe in to get me there. My subwoofers are end tables and I use three of them to get reasonable response--well, I did but now it is time to reconfigure the living room so I have to do it again. Such is life when you have other humans in a shared space--even the dogs take my wife's side.

To assist you with subwoofers, go to www.data-bass.com and they have plenty of information contained there. Plenty of charts, graphs, distortion analysis, SPL, power compression and all the cool things that are bass related. All sorts of educational pages also, give you clarity to know what you need, how to set it up properly and your options before laying down the wallet. Be aware the guy is quite the nut, he uses a 20,000 watt stadium amp to test things and builds massive subwoofers to pressurize an entire wharehouse on the weekend for EDM dance music. If you decide to build a few ZOD subwoofers that he designed, it will help you with the mains because it will blow the glass out of the building. Still, they have charts to help you get whatever SPL, frequency response, distortion limits and so on that you desire--a great resource.

So think positive, with that room and the frequency response you have achieved--no worries about amps and DACs, right? Some acoustic curtains over the windows--at least the first 3 meters and a rug will help you by many orders of magnitude than even the best Benchmark studio amps and DACs ever could. Throw in some subs, determine that by using data-bass.com, get some bass management action going on and have fun with it. I'd bet two or three small sealed 12's could get you there as long as you don't need rockstar mode or actual war volume. Sealed subs are easier to EQ and integrate and being much smaller, allows more flexibility over other alignments. I use ported myself, I had to make furniture out of subs to sneak them into the living room--the chess game turned out that way. I also like pipe organs and movies--and post on audio forums for fun so keep that in mind. ;)

Hope that helps and good luck in your quest to get smooth response in your room. Extra bonus, some subwoofers when coupled with OCD does improve your workout! Enjoy
Thanks a lot again. You seem to think that the acoustic measurements are from my room
That is not the case, as I said I found these measurements somewhere in the web. I tried to follow you advise to find some measurements regarding speaker distortions. I will generate some measurements with Adyssey and will upload them soon.

Yes I clearly get your point the speakers are to close together and it's a ****** setup. I cant flip the sides as the couch wouldnt fit on the other side :(. Initially I had the couch on the left side and speakers infront of the glass window, I think that even bader .

I'll follow your advise and get some rug. Also I will order some painting for the walls. Wdyt about some prints which are 4cm deep?
So called canvas prints. Maybe even could fill the gap between the wall and the print with something absorbing.

Should the subwoofers downfire? My speakers are firing back. Should I build them by my own? Not sure for what I should check when I buy the subwoofers.
Not sure where to place the subs.

And what do you mean with OCD
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #9
Thanks for the pictures and measurements!

Your room really puts the ass in bass don't it. Peaks, nulls and all sorts of acoustic chaos. The only thing I see in that room that absorbs sound reflections is the potted plants :D Hard glass on one side with the speaker close to that boundry, a solid wall on the other side further away to really make the reflections completely different then throw in hardwood floors and a smooth ceiling--awesome if you want to build an echo chamber but not so good for clarity.

First things first, your bass response gets crazy below around 140Hz--subwoofers will help there considering you have limited space to put the mains. Your room nodes very quite a bit so start off with a pair of them, move them around diagonally from each other, heck raise them off the floor, go mid-wall and that sort of thing. You will still have the peak/dips from 80Hz to around 140Hz from the mains--you really can't absorb bass with frequencies that long so maybe flipping the room or putting the speakers in the back firing at the front would work better? Having the speakers that close together facing forward with no toe in makes a mess of things so maybe in the back of the room with more speaker seperation will work better?

Yes, I would get at least a rug to place in front of the speakers to help with absorbing some of the floor reflections. Maybe get some acoustically absorbent curtains for part of the windows--at leas the first reflection points should clean things up a bit. You can also build acoustic panels for the left side of the room, basically they are a wood frame around 10cm deep with a 5cm thick chunk of acoustic fiberglass inside and you stretch acoustic cloth over them--you can have things printed on acoustic cloth like movie posters, pictures of the dog or whatever you please. They look like really thick posters--all depends on how far you wish to go.

To answer your question, yes...I would use subwoofers to smooth out the bass response in your room. You have a peak 13dB hotter at around 34Hz VS a null at 40Hz and you can't EQ out nulls. You can cut out the peaks with EQ so the two or three subwoofers would fill in the nulls and considering your room is not studio grade--they can smooth that bass response out for you. Forget about bass traps in a room in that configuration, thy would have to be very large to absorb bass and you don't have the space. My system is in a living room, it teaches me to be a realist as heart because I don't have other options. :( I use rugs, waveguides for mid/treble to limit vertical dispersion and proper toe in to get me there. My subwoofers are end tables and I use three of them to get reasonable response--well, I did but now it is time to reconfigure the living room so I have to do it again. Such is life when you have other humans in a shared space--even the dogs take my wife's side.

To assist you with subwoofers, go to www.data-bass.com and they have plenty of information contained there. Plenty of charts, graphs, distortion analysis, SPL, power compression and all the cool things that are bass related. All sorts of educational pages also, give you clarity to know what you need, how to set it up properly and your options before laying down the wallet. Be aware the guy is quite the nut, he uses a 20,000 watt stadium amp to test things and builds massive subwoofers to pressurize an entire wharehouse on the weekend for EDM dance music. If you decide to build a few ZOD subwoofers that he designed, it will help you with the mains because it will blow the glass out of the building. Still, they have charts to help you get whatever SPL, frequency response, distortion limits and so on that you desire--a great resource.

So think positive, with that room and the frequency response you have achieved--no worries about amps and DACs, right? Some acoustic curtains over the windows--at least the first 3 meters and a rug will help you by many orders of magnitude than even the best Benchmark studio amps and DACs ever could. Throw in some subs, determine that by using data-bass.com, get some bass management action going on and have fun with it. I'd bet two or three small sealed 12's could get you there as long as you don't need rockstar mode or actual war volume. Sealed subs are easier to EQ and integrate and being much smaller, allows more flexibility over other alignments. I use ported myself, I had to make furniture out of subs to sneak them into the living room--the chess game turned out that way. I also like pipe organs and movies--and post on audio forums for fun so keep that in mind. ;)

Hope that helps and good luck in your quest to get smooth response in your room. Extra bonus, some subwoofers when coupled with OCD does improve your workout! Enjoy
After doing more research on that Topic I want to buy 2 closed active subwoofers now. Are there any construction kids you guys can recommend? Or should I go for an assembled sub? Which models can you recommend?
And should I take downfire, backfire or frontfire?

My speakers are Quadral Aurum Orkan 9. Quadral only has open subs in stock not closed ones
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
1,258
Likes
1,444
Location
Michigan
#10
After doing more research on that Topic I want to buy 2 closed active subwoofers now. Are there any construction kids you guys can recommend? Or should I go for an assembled sub? Which models can you recommend?

My speakers are Quadral Aurum Orkan 9. Quadral only has open subs in stock not closed ones
Everyone recommends Rythmik. They do have kits.
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #11
Everyone recommends Rythmik. They do have kits.
I'm located in EU, I dont think they ship here. Or do they have any partnershop here?
Can you recommend thos wireless adapters for subwoofers?
 
Last edited:

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
1,258
Likes
1,444
Location
Michigan
#14
Is there any benefit taking Rythmik then SVS? SVS is available here
The SVS is a good sub for the price with good features and excellent performance above 30Hz, and some ability below that. The Rhythmik has excellent features and deep clean bass extension below 30Hz (and great performance above 30Hz), especially compared to the price in the US, outperforming everything in the price range. I don't think you would go wrong with either. Just depends if you want to spend more and build your own cabinet for the difference. I would probably go with SVS if I were in Europe, and would definitely get Rythmik here in the US.
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #15
The SVS is a good sub for the price with good features and excellent performance above 30Hz, and some ability below that. The Rhythmik has excellent features and deep clean bass extension below 30Hz (and great performance above 30Hz), especially compared to the price in the US, outperforming everything in the price range. I don't think you would go wrong with either. Just depends if you want to spend more and build your own cabinet for the difference. I would probably go with SVS if I were in Europe, and would definitely get Rythmik here in the US.
Will go with the SVS. Thanks :)
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
41
Likes
130
#16
After doing more research on that Topic I want to buy 2 closed active subwoofers now. Are there any construction kids you guys can recommend? Or should I go for an assembled sub? Which models can you recommend?
And should I take downfire, backfire or frontfire?

My speakers are Quadral Aurum Orkan 9. Quadral only has open subs in stock not closed ones
That depends if you take the blue pill or the red pill,

If you take the blue pill, you can purchase off-the-shelf subs and believe what you want to believe. If you take the red pill, you leave wonderland and see how far down the rabbit hole goes. Your choice! :D To be clear, I took the red pill years ago in car audio as to get the best performance in available space--I had to custom build everything. If you have experience in car audio, that is a huge help because you have the skill set and wisdom to build enclosures, get the ports correctly sized and do proper setup/calibration of the end result to get the measurements clean. If you have experience in pro sound/PA gear--that also helps as high/low pass filters, proper gain structure and that sort of thing is old hat. However, if you have no idea what you are doing, don't have the time to learn, don't have the tools/skill set to build things or measuring gear--the blue pill might be your best option.

You have four actual options, true DIY where you design/build subwoofers to meet your specifications for size, frequency response, distortion, peak SPL and so on (what I do) then another option is to take a DIY build that fits your needs and copy that, the third option is "kit building" or assemble yourself with flatpacks that you glue/clamp together and finally off-the shelf or plug and play.

True DIY is great if you have a specific requirement for a specific size or want to stealth the subs to look like something else. Common for people to build end tables, custom enclosures that fit behind/under or inside couches or construct infinite baffle and hornloaded subs in walls for example. Other people build alignments and designs not offered off-the-shelf, transmission line, front loaded horns, tapped horns, various bandpass types or balanced push-pull slot loaded or opposed subs to prevent vibraton. Other people build subs to learn how they work, part of their hobby. Quite often a person will build a proven design at the start to get the hang of sub/speaker building so a great place to start if you wish to go that way without screwing things up.

Kits are great also, you can get some monsters from GSG Audio (21" stadium subs) and various 15" and 18" with glue and clamps to get it done. You can also get kits at Parts Express for smaller subs be they ported/sealed but you are limited to sealed and ported. They also allow different amp options, you can do the typical plate amp in the sub or go with commercial/professional amplifiers in a rack with your other audio gear to avoid stringing power cable and signal cables around. No worries about ground loops either so some people do kits for that specific reason. Kits also work well if you want a specific veneer to match furniture etc. as anything can be applied to the kit box.

If conventional sealed or ported subs will give you the performance you desire, plenty of manufacturers to choose from. If you want a pair of dual 18" subwoofers tuned to 10Hz with enough fire power to blow your windows out...JTR can hook you up! Want something that has amazing furniture grade woodworking in whatever finish you like? Funk Audio in Canada will provide with a price to match. Power Sound Audio also makes subwoofers with serious firepower at a more reasonable price, other brands like HSU, Rhythmic and even Monoprice has some great subs.

I generally don't recommend subwoofers, too many variables but can offer a few tips. Determine the maximum size of two subwoofers that you can live with right at the start. Say you want a specific sub, copy that size with cardboard so you get a real world visual concerning size just to make sure. Determine what peak SPL and frequency response you desire before narrowing things down. Yes, this means converting your wants/needs and desires to numbers but I can help! Take a sniff at data-bass, they actually test subwoofers, give distortion charts, frequency response and so on so easy to find actual test results of various subwoofers. Think of it as ASR of subwoofers, just be aware the guy has a 20,000 watt stadium amp he uses and builds some really monsterous subs that punch north of 140dB/.

https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=sq5ajq

A great place to start is "Subwoofer Myths" to clear your mind of all the marketing/audiophile clutter concerning subwoofers. There is no "correct" way to do it, makes sense because if there way everyone would build them the same way. A great resource to help you define what you want, look at the testing to determine what will work and very educational to assist in proper setup, calibration and feeding your subwoofer gear.

Hope that helps, enjoy the read and may your subs be keepers :)
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #17
That depends if you take the blue pill or the red pill,

If you take the blue pill, you can purchase off-the-shelf subs and believe what you want to believe. If you take the red pill, you leave wonderland and see how far down the rabbit hole goes. Your choice! :D To be clear, I took the red pill years ago in car audio as to get the best performance in available space--I had to custom build everything. If you have experience in car audio, that is a huge help because you have the skill set and wisdom to build enclosures, get the ports correctly sized and do proper setup/calibration of the end result to get the measurements clean. If you have experience in pro sound/PA gear--that also helps as high/low pass filters, proper gain structure and that sort of thing is old hat. However, if you have no idea what you are doing, don't have the time to learn, don't have the tools/skill set to build things or measuring gear--the blue pill might be your best option.

You have four actual options, true DIY where you design/build subwoofers to meet your specifications for size, frequency response, distortion, peak SPL and so on (what I do) then another option is to take a DIY build that fits your needs and copy that, the third option is "kit building" or assemble yourself with flatpacks that you glue/clamp together and finally off-the shelf or plug and play.

True DIY is great if you have a specific requirement for a specific size or want to stealth the subs to look like something else. Common for people to build end tables, custom enclosures that fit behind/under or inside couches or construct infinite baffle and hornloaded subs in walls for example. Other people build alignments and designs not offered off-the-shelf, transmission line, front loaded horns, tapped horns, various bandpass types or balanced push-pull slot loaded or opposed subs to prevent vibraton. Other people build subs to learn how they work, part of their hobby. Quite often a person will build a proven design at the start to get the hang of sub/speaker building so a great place to start if you wish to go that way without screwing things up.

Kits are great also, you can get some monsters from GSG Audio (21" stadium subs) and various 15" and 18" with glue and clamps to get it done. You can also get kits at Parts Express for smaller subs be they ported/sealed but you are limited to sealed and ported. They also allow different amp options, you can do the typical plate amp in the sub or go with commercial/professional amplifiers in a rack with your other audio gear to avoid stringing power cable and signal cables around. No worries about ground loops either so some people do kits for that specific reason. Kits also work well if you want a specific veneer to match furniture etc. as anything can be applied to the kit box.

If conventional sealed or ported subs will give you the performance you desire, plenty of manufacturers to choose from. If you want a pair of dual 18" subwoofers tuned to 10Hz with enough fire power to blow your windows out...JTR can hook you up! Want something that has amazing furniture grade woodworking in whatever finish you like? Funk Audio in Canada will provide with a price to match. Power Sound Audio also makes subwoofers with serious firepower at a more reasonable price, other brands like HSU, Rhythmic and even Monoprice has some great subs.

I generally don't recommend subwoofers, too many variables but can offer a few tips. Determine the maximum size of two subwoofers that you can live with right at the start. Say you want a specific sub, copy that size with cardboard so you get a real world visual concerning size just to make sure. Determine what peak SPL and frequency response you desire before narrowing things down. Yes, this means converting your wants/needs and desires to numbers but I can help! Take a sniff at data-bass, they actually test subwoofers, give distortion charts, frequency response and so on so easy to find actual test results of various subwoofers. Think of it as ASR of subwoofers, just be aware the guy has a 20,000 watt stadium amp he uses and builds some really monsterous subs that punch north of 140dB/.

https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=sq5ajq

A great place to start is "Subwoofer Myths" to clear your mind of all the marketing/audiophile clutter concerning subwoofers. There is no "correct" way to do it, makes sense because if there way everyone would build them the same way. A great resource to help you define what you want, look at the testing to determine what will work and very educational to assist in proper setup, calibration and feeding your subwoofer gear.

Hope that helps, enjoy the read and may your subs be keepers :)
Unfortunately I cant / want use any US / Canadian based sources for audio equipment. The costs for shipping will be too high to Europe.

I dont have any experience with building subs or speakers, and I actually dont have the time to learn it.
Building subs into some furniture would make the most sense to me as I have limited space. May you want to check the pictures of my room in a previous post in this topic. Can I actually cover the sub so put some plant on it or for example move the tv lowboard infront of the sub that the sub is covered and not visible anymore?

Or would that make any impact on the sound
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
41
Likes
130
#18
Stealthing subs?

Yes, I've helped people with the easiest is to get a stone top that is larger than the sub. Get an old bicycle inner tube, cut it into several pieces and lay it on the sub. Throw the stone top on and the weight of the thing will keep it in place. Viola! You have a stone top end table. Other ways to do it are to get an end table that will fit over the sub without touching it. If you find it vibrates the table, place a yoga mat or something under the sub to absorb vibration.

Another place you can put subs is to "fly" them as they do in rock concerts. Basically, if you have strong enough ceiling support you can hang them from that support and make sure they don't touch the walls. Other people build them into chairs, beer kegs and so on. Back in my youth, I built a 10" ported sub for my car and stuffed it inside a large gym back behind my front seat. The woofer side I sewed in acoustic cloth and stuffed old socks and gym clothes in the top. Nobody ever stole my sub or knew what it was... :D Who digs around in a gym bag to see if there is a sub in there?

Hope that helps!
 
OP
B
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
1
Thread Starter #20
Stealthing subs?

Yes, I've helped people with the easiest is to get a stone top that is larger than the sub. Get an old bicycle inner tube, cut it into several pieces and lay it on the sub. Throw the stone top on and the weight of the thing will keep it in place. Viola! You have a stone top end table. Other ways to do it are to get an end table that will fit over the sub without touching it. If you find it vibrates the table, place a yoga mat or something under the sub to absorb vibration.

Another place you can put subs is to "fly" them as they do in rock concerts. Basically, if you have strong enough ceiling support you can hang them from that support and make sure they don't touch the walls. Other people build them into chairs, beer kegs and so on. Back in my youth, I built a 10" ported sub for my car and stuffed it inside a large gym back behind my front seat. The woofer side I sewed in acoustic cloth and stuffed old socks and gym clothes in the top. Nobody ever stole my sub or knew what it was... :D Who digs around in a gym bag to see if there is a sub in there?

Hope that helps!
Can you tell me more about the stone thing?
If I cover the sub I cant completely cover it right? So there need so be some space for it to breathe(send the waves out)

If I do stealth ones I need to knowledge to build them i guess :/
 
Top Bottom